Bury's new financial trouble?

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08 Aug 2019 11:40 #151 by nobbyblue
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It's not for me to say really.

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08 Aug 2019 13:25 - 08 Aug 2019 13:58 #152 by CCU
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Win or Lose, Up The Blues!
Last edit: 08 Aug 2019 13:58 by CCU.

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08 Aug 2019 15:37 #153 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Even the EFL sound more competent with their threats than TM ever was with Brexit.

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08 Aug 2019 18:33 #154 by Dazwacky
Replied by Dazwacky on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

munchymagic wrote: Even the EFL sound more competent with their threats than TM ever was with Brexit.


It's absolute nonsense that the EFL can allow clubs like Derby to offer Rooney the deal he is supposed to be on while Bolton have been in the same position and look at the outcome now! The EFL should be held accountable its time for them to say its not sustainable, Nixon should be embarrassed representing our club and approving nonsense like this but forget the the free trips he gets and the ladys ;-)
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08 Aug 2019 18:56 #155 by franksidebottom
Replied by franksidebottom on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
The FL should have stepped in ages ago, instead they did nothing, watched it all unfold and then sanctioned them. Woeful leadership from the top of the game.

I don’t even think the owner of Bury has been ratified by the FL.

“Yeah, I know of Barry. Bit of a fantasist” - John Courtenay 2003

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08 Aug 2019 22:53 #156 by STH
Replied by STH on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Not to do with this thread, but what’s your take on the Leeds situation CarisleWhite? Strong enough to compete again? Couple more promising young lads out the door today for very small fees... worried about FFP?

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09 Aug 2019 08:14 #157 by CarlisleWhite
Replied by CarlisleWhite on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

STH wrote: Not to do with this thread, but what’s your take on the Leeds situation CarisleWhite? Strong enough to compete again? Couple more promising young lads out the door today for very small fees... worried about FFP?

There is a good article in the YEP from the MD that says they are now ditching the policy of also developing players for a profit to only having those who can make it at Leeds, but it does seem a bit odd/worrying.
There has been a ton load of dead wood sent out the door, but a couple of the young kids going (Odour was very highly rated I thought) is a bit worrying.
Rumour has been for a long time that this is Radrizanni's last throw of the dice for the promised land before the PSG guys come in, but who knows.
I'm kinda glass half full when it comes to Leeds, and we have signed a wingr for £15M (due in the summer).
So, who knows, contradictory messages, which is Leeds all over

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09 Aug 2019 08:48 #158 by heilkmoon
Replied by heilkmoon on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

CarlisleWhite wrote: (Odour was very highly rated I thought)


With a name like Oduor he must hate autocorrect.
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12 Aug 2019 19:22 #159 by orfc
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Apparent bid to buy bury has been made

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49324224

Though whether it's just desperate, stalling bullshit is another matter

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12 Aug 2019 21:02 #160 by CCU
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9am tomorrow or Sat’s game v Gillingham is off:


Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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13 Aug 2019 10:22 #161 by CCU
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Dale will sell now, as long as right bid comes in:


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13 Aug 2019 13:52 #162 by orfc
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"right bid" is sort of meaningless though. Our trumpets have been sitting tight since 2008 waiting for the "right bid"!

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13 Aug 2019 16:43 #163 by 182blue
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Gillingham game off now.
That's 4 matches called off now which is really stretching the limit of preserving the integrity of the competition.

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13 Aug 2019 16:58 #164 by CCU
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182blue wrote: Gillingham game off now.
That's 4 matches called off now which is really stretching the limit of preserving the integrity of the competition.


One more scheduled fixture (Tues 20th Away to Rotherham) before their big deadline on Friday 23rd.

That would be 4 League games and a League Cup game needing played...

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13 Aug 2019 18:12 #165 by Dazwacky
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CCU wrote: 9am tomorrow or Sat’s game v Gillingham is off:


My gut feeling is they are going to get booted out the league, that Dale is desperate for a game to get played to try and hold the EFL to ransom, I can't see any deal getting done within 10 days can you? he will have been offered fook all hence his tactics not good for Bury me thinks!

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13 Aug 2019 18:48 #166 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
This should all have been sorted out before the season started and they shouldnt have been allowed to cheat their way into league 1. Nothing will happen though, is there a rep for league 2?

There's only one way of life and that's your own!!!

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15 Aug 2019 13:35 #167 by CCU
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Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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16 Aug 2019 12:57 #168 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Good listen just now on Talksport!


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20 Aug 2019 17:50 - 20 Aug 2019 17:52 #169 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
And the fifth League game is now P-P, although this Friday is the key date in terms of them carrying on in any capacity.

Sheff Wed been awarded the postponed EFL Cup game too...


Win or Lose, Up The Blues!
Last edit: 20 Aug 2019 17:52 by CCU.

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22 Aug 2019 17:42 #170 by CarlisleWhite
Replied by CarlisleWhite on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Just seen that the various club trusts (how come they have more than one) have come together and issued a combined statement trying to pressure the owner.
Not sure it will make any difference but serious question - if we were in this position, do we think the Trust would be of use? Wold they even get a satement out before the doors were shut?

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22 Aug 2019 18:46 #171 by 182blue
Replied by 182blue on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
BBC suggesting possibility of further extension.
It's surely gone on too long now.
Nobody wants to see them cease to be but they should effectively be demoted out the league if they are not expelled from it.
Otherwise it isn't fair on other clubs.
Could they be demoted three leagues to Conference North from next season , for example, so at least they can carry on if a takeover is successful?

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22 Aug 2019 20:15 #172 by franksidebottom
Replied by franksidebottom on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
On Talksport today a lady from the EFL, Jevons I think she was called, stated that there would be no extension to tomorrow’s deadline, she seemed pretty adamant.

Steve Dale also text in to say he was in negotiations to sell to 2 separate parties. Apparently he’s owed around £2m from the administrators and wants a further £3m from the sale. He paid a quid for it!

“Yeah, I know of Barry. Bit of a fantasist” - John Courtenay 2003

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22 Aug 2019 21:03 #173 by Laffy
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The reality is the EFL have failed football-how can they govern when they can’t even get the financial fair play rules to work.

They are hanging around waiting for Bury-who have yet to play this season and it’s nearly Sept

I wouldn’t let the CEO babysit my kids.Toothless and out of depth

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23 Aug 2019 07:27 #174 by Markovitch
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Macclesfield in the cross-hairs as well, 9/11 for them

www.cheshire-live.co.uk/sport/football/w...sfield-town-16791501

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23 Aug 2019 11:24 #175 by Laffy
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Again Marko, it begs the question as to what the EFL are doing here.Surely it’s time to build a system from scratch where the lower leagues are run a bit like the Rugby Premiership.

It’s very clear this model is not working

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23 Aug 2019 11:46 #176 by HuntingHorn
Replied by HuntingHorn on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Having bought it for £1 it's unreasonable to ask £3m given it's current situation.
It's unreasonable to ask £3 really.

Any interested party isn't just buying the club they're buying the debt too, so why would anyone buy a pile of creditors AND pay £3m for the privilege?

The guy in charge at Bury seems a bit unhinged to me, his logic is off the scale mentalist.

It's better to be silent and assumed a fool than to speak and remove all doubt

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23 Aug 2019 11:48 - 23 Aug 2019 11:52 #177 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Their hands are tied though, aren't they? In the eyes of the law football clubs are limited companies who happen to belong to a club, the Football League. The FL can't but in and tell them how to run their business. Under restrictive trade practices they have to give them reasonable time to get their house in order or the shareholders of Bury will sue the FA for diminution in value of their investments.
The bankruptcy of Wine Direct, Oddbins and Wine Cellars all brought a bigger tear to my eye than Bury, especially if it means we can't get relegated.

What happens in Rugby?
Last edit: 23 Aug 2019 11:52 by Markovitch.

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23 Aug 2019 11:50 #178 by Laffy
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It’s only worth what someone is prepared to pay-hence the lack of a queue outside the Main Stand at BP.

Any sane person buying into a club would want all the entry fee to be paid into the Club and used to run it-not trousered by the seller.
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23 Aug 2019 11:58 #179 by Waltero
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Tell that to our owners

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23 Aug 2019 12:05 #180 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
I assume the guy who bought the club, Bury, then stumped up a couple of million to pay off debt and to provide cash flow. If it is debt finance he'll be in the list of creditors. I would think his chance of getting anything is small though. He must have known.

A guy I know was brought in a few years ago because they were screwed then. They borrowed money from some lender in Jersey at 20% and this was going to finance the push into the Championship. This was when they offloaded Hope and Etuhu. Even then it was a basket case, and they were living from crisis to crisis robbing Peter to pay Paul. From a financial point of view they are probably better to go down to the Northern Premier, right off the debts and start again. From memory, they sold and leased back Gigg Lane

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23 Aug 2019 12:11 #181 by HuntingHorn
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Laffy wrote: It’s only worth what someone is prepared to pay-hence the lack of a queue outside the Main Stand at BP.

Any sane person buying into a club would want all the entry fee to be paid into the Club and used to run it-not trousered by the seller.



Exactly.
At the moment the guy at Bury is like a car salesman stood next to an ageing Lada that's rusty and clearly pouring oil out of more holes than a colander but he has it on his forecourt for the same price as an average family saloon.
It's never going to sell with those unreal expectations.

It's better to be silent and assumed a fool than to speak and remove all doubt

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23 Aug 2019 13:09 #182 by Dazwacky
Replied by Dazwacky on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
I'm sure it said on the radio Dale will get 1.6 million if the club go bust as he is one of the main creditors, there was talk of some loan which stands at 3 million due to interest charges but original lending was just over 1 million? 400k of this has gone missing and is getting investigated, so when people go on about him selling for a £1 its not going to happen as this time tomorrow that £1 becomes 1.6 million!! I reckon it would need someone to agree to take on the debt and pay Dale off which could be circa 4/5 million plus its not going to happen.

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23 Aug 2019 15:59 #183 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
If it’s not in the tin, you can’t have it.A point I made over and over again about Carlisle-what do the loans represent?Cash?Cant be because there isn’t any.Assets?Well there is the stadium but selling that would see you hung drawn and quartered.

Sounds like the guy at Bury is playing poker with the loyal fans and expecting them to stump up if he is preferred creditor.

What’s the view Piggie-you seem to have an eye for asset strippers?

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23 Aug 2019 17:22 #184 by Dazwacky
Replied by Dazwacky on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
It must be the stadium Laffy that has the value as they said he stands to get 1.6 million and that was based on the 25p in the pound it's a proper mess and little nice ground is Gigg lane had some good days there, but Dale does not give a flying fook by the sounds of it! Its defo a game of Poker, if someone buys think they will be taken a hit on the ole loor front!

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23 Aug 2019 17:34 #185 by CCU

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23 Aug 2019 17:43 #186 by heilkmoon
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More brinkmanship.
There’s always a last ditch rescue in these situations, be very surprised if there isn’t this time even thought I think they deserve to be kicked out.

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23 Aug 2019 18:44 #187 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
It will interest a fake news expert Piglet that the legals I had drafted contained restrictive covenants over the stadium and land-it should never be used for anything other than football unless someone provides a better alternative.

What’s the alternative use value of a stadium still needed for football?NIL

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23 Aug 2019 18:58 #188 by Moylesey
Replied by Moylesey on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
I bought a seat at Bury when they were last in the mire but I’m afraid I believe this needs to happen if nothing else to get rid of the view that it will never be allowed to happen.

It should be and hopefully the message will hit home and clubs will stop living in cloud cuckoo land.

Some hope...
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23 Aug 2019 19:27 #189 by 182blue
Replied by 182blue on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Bury FC can stay alive but they have to be chucked out of the league now., I'm afraid.
God forbid the same thing happened to us there would always be a Carlisle United as the club is it's fans and it would never die all together, even if it was not technically the same club.
Context is needed Notts County dropped out of league last season, they started the season in the same league as Bury.

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23 Aug 2019 19:49 #190 by Waltero
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If they are removed from the league how far down the tier would they have to go

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23 Aug 2019 19:55 #191 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

Waltero wrote: If they are removed from the league how far down the tier would they have to go


If the season has already started in all leagues then I would guess that they would have to scrap this season and see what league they are thrown into for next season.

Not an ideal situation but in effect they cheated their way to promotion last season.

Feel sorry for the fans as they turn up week in week out and it isn't their fault.
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23 Aug 2019 19:57 #192 by franksidebottom
Replied by franksidebottom on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

Markovitch wrote: Their hands are tied though, aren't they? In the eyes of the law football clubs are limited companies who happen to belong to a club, the Football League. The FL can't but in and tell them how to run their business. Under restrictive trade practices they have to give them reasonable time to get their house in order or the shareholders of Bury will sue the FA for diminution in value of their investments.
The bankruptcy of Wine Direct, Oddbins and Wine Cellars all brought a bigger tear to my eye than Bury, especially if it means we can't get relegated.

What happens in Rugby?


Of course the EFL can but in and tell owners how to run their club, that’s what FFP is all about and the fact you can only spend so much of turnover on wages.

EFL also have the power to block these rogues from being involved in FL clubs, although it appears they’re only actually bothered about individuals having enough funds to take the club on, they don’t seem too bothered about previous business practices and past misdemeanours.

They’ve proved beyond doubt that they’re not fit for purpose with their handling of several high profile cases in recent years, they’re absolutely hopeless.

“Yeah, I know of Barry. Bit of a fantasist” - John Courtenay 2003
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23 Aug 2019 20:08 #193 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
There is of course the football creditors rule which overrides general company law when it comes to insolvency.Basically football related creditors get paid first

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23 Aug 2019 20:25 - 23 Aug 2019 20:41 #194 by Moylesey
Last edit: 23 Aug 2019 20:41 by CCU. Reason: Link updated

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23 Aug 2019 20:29 #195 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
All perfectly legal-it’s the debt that has value in situations like this as it sits above equity.A good example of why EWM debt renders the CUFC shares valueless-unless you pay the debt back!

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23 Aug 2019 20:42 - 23 Aug 2019 20:43 #196 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Rumours time:


Win or Lose, Up The Blues!
Last edit: 23 Aug 2019 20:43 by CCU.

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23 Aug 2019 20:42 #197 by Moylesey
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Legal maybe but fit and proper?

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23 Aug 2019 21:17 #198 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

franksidebottom wrote:

Markovitch wrote: Their hands are tied though, aren't they? In the eyes of the law football clubs are limited companies who happen to belong to a club, the Football League. The FL can't but in and tell them how to run their business. Under restrictive trade practices they have to give them reasonable time to get their house in order or the shareholders of Bury will sue the FA for diminution in value of their investments.
The bankruptcy of Wine Direct, Oddbins and Wine Cellars all brought a bigger tear to my eye than Bury, especially if it means we can't get relegated.

What happens in Rugby?


Of course the EFL can but in and tell owners how to run their club, that’s what FFP is all about and the fact you can only spend so much of turnover on wages.

EFL also have the power to block these rogues from being involved in FL clubs, although it appears they’re only actually bothered about individuals having enough funds to take the club on, they don’t seem too bothered about previous business practices and past misdemeanours.

They’ve proved beyond doubt that they’re not fit for purpose with their handling of several high profile cases in recent years, they’re absolutely hopeless.


No Frank, they don't! The FA is a club managed by its members taking into account the rules and regulations of other bodies such as UEFA and FIFA.

FFT rules were voted on by the clubs

Championship clubs vote in favour of Financial Fair Play
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/17841566
The Premier League shareholders passed a set of financial regulations for its clubs
cartilagefreecaptain.sbnation.com/2013/4...eague-UEFA-Scudamore

Same for fit and proper
They are mandated to run the tests.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fit-and-proper-person_test

A football club is a limited company, virtually the same as Debenhams or the Post Office in the eyes of the law.

And every year the members pay honest, hard-working, chartered accountants to audit whether the FA has acted within the mandate of the members. And not just in England
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23 Aug 2019 21:25 #199 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Debt changes hands all the time.Its an asset class and most of us have it in our pension funds in the form of bonds.

As the Bury guy is finding out however, emotion plays a huge part in football.

The fit and proper is more about business acumen in my view-unless you have been seriously banned as a director in other businesses.Its difficult to say who is and who isn’t in the absence of offences.

In my view, it’s the EFL rules that need an overhaul-most clubs are chasing the dream and money usually wins-encouraging clubs to overspend and get into debt.I would totally restructure the way the lower leagues are run with wage caps and an emphasis on player contracts rather than loans.The prevalence and increase in loan signings is surely evidence of financial distress and hardly a way to run any business relying on temporary labour.
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23 Aug 2019 21:48 #200 by CCU
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Amazing piece!


Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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