Approach for the club

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02 Dec 2019 20:24 #701 by Piglet_Phoenix
Replied by Piglet_Phoenix on topic Approach for the club
You shouldn't be treating any sort of investment in your business as "a gift", holy smokes man.

What kind of snake oil salesman are you?

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02 Dec 2019 20:27 #702 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Approach for the club
I think it was you Andrew that told us that no one can buy shares because that would dilute the trusts shareholding and the trust blocks everyone. Therefore, PD doesn't have any choice, does he?

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02 Dec 2019 20:29 #703 by Piglet_Phoenix
Replied by Piglet_Phoenix on topic Approach for the club
As for "Barcelona" you're having a laugh, aren't you?

They have upwards of 180,000 members and a ground with a capacity of over 99,000.

Yes, member ownership may work for them but it's entirely irrelevant to our situation. You might as well compare our club to a school of dolphins or a corn field for all the value we can gain from their model.

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02 Dec 2019 20:35 #704 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Approach for the club

Markovitch wrote: I think it was you Andrew that told us that no one can buy shares because that would dilute the trusts shareholding and the trust blocks everyone. Therefore, PD doesn't have any choice, does he?


No reason Jenkins couldn't sell him his second tranche that he took over from the accountant 10 years ago.

But i.m pretty sure owning 20% of Carlisle United is not in Phillip Days plans either now or in the future

Just imagine the shite he.d get for not splashing the cash i.ll bet he has his stashed under beds all around the world.

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02 Dec 2019 20:43 #705 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Approach for the club
20% makes it an associated company under common control. All the downsides of consolidating losses into EWM without any of the tax benefits. It's unlikely to have a huge effect but it could affect everything he does. His accountants will be shouting at him not to do that

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02 Dec 2019 20:48 #706 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Approach for the club

Piglet_Phoenix wrote: As for "Barcelona" you're having a laugh, aren't you?

They have upwards of 180,000 members and a ground with a capacity of over 99,000.

Yes, member ownership may work for them but it's entirely irrelevant to our situation. You might as well compare our club to a school of dolphins or a corn field for all the value we can gain from their model.


No, it's not 5000 fans around the world putting a fiver a week in gives you an income of £1250000 a year more than enough to fund a league two club and once you add in the gate. tv. solidarity and sponsorship money you're looking at a minimum income of 3 million a year.

Fans just need to step up and get their priorities right own your football club and secure its future forever or two pints a week.

I don't see that there's even an argument

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02 Dec 2019 20:52 #707 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Approach for the club

Markovitch wrote: 20% makes it an associated company under common control. All the downsides of consolidating losses into EWM without any of the tax benefits. It's unlikely to have a huge effect but it could affect everything he does. His accountants will be shouting at him not to do that


Not if he owned the shares personally

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02 Dec 2019 21:02 #708 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Approach for the club
I’m very clear the Trust will dilute-they aren’t stupid and can see the merits of equity rather than loan

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02 Dec 2019 21:02 #709 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Approach for the club
I don't know why you're even discussing it the amount we.re looking at here for him is loose change and if he had any intention of wanting to own it 3 years ago he.d have just said Andrew there's 200k youre free now either go off on your cruises or stay and pretend you still own and run it i.m easy either way.

As I said earlier the longer this goes on i.m pretty sure he has an opportunity coming up where he can write some losses off against a tax event

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02 Dec 2019 21:05 #710 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Approach for the club

Laffy wrote: I’m very clear the Trust will dilute-they aren’t stupid and can see the merits of equity rather than loan


Over my dead body

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02 Dec 2019 21:07 #711 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Approach for the club
You’re talking out of your arse again.The Club has relied on benevolence for years.Writing a loan off is also tantamount to a ‘gift’Thus far EWM have made a loan and unless it’s converted to equity, it’s either remains a loan or a ‘gift’ by writing it off

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02 Dec 2019 21:09 #712 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Approach for the club

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Laffy wrote: I’m very clear the Trust will dilute-they aren’t stupid and can see the merits of equity rather than loan


Over my dead body


And i.m sorry Andrew but to perpetuate the myth that that's even needed is wrong it would take a decent accountant 10 minutes to come up with a way of owning 100% of the losses without owning 75% of the club

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02 Dec 2019 21:11 #713 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Approach for the club
Barry

I don’t think the club can move on without dilution-it can’t raise new equity under the current rules and the Trust have shown no appetite or ability to raise meaningful cash.

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02 Dec 2019 21:14 #714 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Approach for the club

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Laffy wrote: I’m very clear the Trust will dilute-they aren’t stupid and can see the merits of equity rather than loan


Over my dead body


And i.m sorry Andrew but to perpetuate the myth that that's even needed is wrong it would take a decent accountant 10 minutes to come up with a way of owning 100% of the losses without owning 75% of the club


And if by some miracle Uncle Jeremy was to get elected i believe their policy is that every club must be 25.1% fan owned

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02 Dec 2019 21:18 #715 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Approach for the club
I’m afraid group relief needs 75.1pc.

The bigger point however for me was I wanted the money to go in as long term money ie shares.That means new shares and therefore dilution

The Trust Agreement prohibits no more than £5k of new shares without their consent-and they have 6 months to dwell on it.

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02 Dec 2019 21:30 #716 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Approach for the club

Laffy wrote: Barry

I don’t think the club can move on without dilution-it can’t raise new equity under the current rules and the Trust have shown no appetite or ability to raise meaningful cash.


No, you're right with all that but leave the benefits and rights of the trust [ like vetoing a new owner ] with the club but take the financial side into a new company or better still just make it 100% fan-owned and the problem goes away.

And again to say the Trust set up stops new equity, of course, it doesn't just means that for every 100 quid somebody wants to invest they put 75 into the club and gift the other 25 to the trust who then buy shares with it the result is the status quo is maintained and the whole 100 quid goes into the clubs coffers.

But please be assured that does not mean the arselickers who are currently abusing the power created by those of us who fought to get those shares achieved.

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02 Dec 2019 21:42 #717 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Approach for the club
Andy Holt came up against loads of shite like this when he first took over at Accy there were loads of things in place to stop one nasty man taking their club away and despite the fans knowing AH didn't fall into that category the protections stopped him doing what he needed to do at the time to get to the point where he was willing to put the cash in to keep the club going.

He just put a set of smart accountants onto it and three days later they'd devised a way to get round them So no reason any new investor at Carlisle couldn't do exactly the same.

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02 Dec 2019 21:43 #718 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Approach for the club
I don’t do gifts other than to charity and kids

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02 Dec 2019 21:44 #719 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Approach for the club

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Markovitch wrote: 20% makes it an associated company under common control. All the downsides of consolidating losses into EWM without any of the tax benefits. It's unlikely to have a huge effect but it could affect everything he does. His accountants will be shouting at him not to do that


Not if he owned the shares personally


It doesn't matter. The test is control. He controls ewm, he controls cufc, so common control exists

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02 Dec 2019 22:01 #720 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Approach for the club
I disagree-you need a group and there isn’t one

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03 Dec 2019 08:02 #721 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Approach for the club
We are just talking about accounting, not tax. We equity account so he'll have to take in his share of losses, disclose worthless loans, disclose any asset charges and talk about impairment risks in the risk section . The way CUFC performs none of that is good news, though I guess if it's a private company its not the end of the word.


Frank Holt said the £400k was any club, not specifically Accrington.

I get your point about number of people etc but just looking at Carlisle how does the club improve the marketing position? If you wanted you open a business do you feel that you know what CUFC could offer you for product support? What more could they do?

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03 Dec 2019 09:06 #722 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Approach for the club
I’m afraid it starts at the top for me.What is the direction of travel, vision?Without that, nobody is going to get on board in a meaningful way.

Would you get on a train if you didn’t know where it was going?

The ownership issue hangs like a fog over the club-sooner it’s sorted one way or other, locals will get behind it

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03 Dec 2019 09:46 #723 by stu
Replied by stu on topic Approach for the club
We if PD is currently collecting up the shares as reported, maybe that event is getting closer.
Interesting to know the decision on the Trusts shares, if they will be transferred without a members vote. I wonder what the "mystery" proposal which persuaded the Trust Chairman to resign was? And why it has to be completed in a short time scale? I would suspect it will be concluded before the January transfer window.
Sorry if this has been covered bdfore.

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03 Dec 2019 10:37 #724 by aberdeenblue28
Replied by aberdeenblue28 on topic Approach for the club
There will be a day when we can walk into BP and look into the directors box where there will be no Jenkins no Nixon no Pattison. The day will come sooner rather than later so just believe. Protest or not it will happen.

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03 Dec 2019 13:24 #725 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Approach for the club
You sound like Nostradamus

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03 Dec 2019 14:05 #726 by franksidebottom
Replied by franksidebottom on topic Approach for the club

Markovitch wrote: We are just talking about accounting, not tax. We equity account so he'll have to take in his share of losses, disclose worthless loans, disclose any asset charges and talk about impairment risks in the risk section . The way CUFC performs none of that is good news, though I guess if it's a private company its not the end of the word.


Frank Holt said the £400k was any club, not specifically Accrington.

I get your point about number of people etc but just looking at Carlisle how does the club improve the marketing position? If you wanted you open a business do you feel that you know what CUFC could offer you for product support? What more could they do?


Employ a sales & marketing person would be a start, and by that I don’t mean having someone filling in the role amongst all their other jobs they have to do day to day which appears to be the case at the minute. A local person with contacts throughout the local business world would be ideal but failing that someobody with a bit of personality who will get themselves out there and get people interested, involved and parting with their money. Knighton knew exactly how to do this and he also employed Martin Hudson who was perfect for the position, I’d love to know how much money he brought into the club in the mid 90s. These people are worth their weight in gold.

Like I say though, without a change at the top I fear anyone in the role will be fighting a losing battle given the apathy towards the club at the minute. By all accounts Phil King wasn’t great at his job but he must’ve thought he was pissing in the wind at times, very few folk want to be involved with such an amateurish regime. Matchday sponsorship packages are going unsold, advertising boards at the ground are unsold and those which are sold a good proportion are connected to the club anyway. It’s all lost revenue to the football club and something which Lummy said he would improve straight away, I honestly don’t think it would be hard to do tbh.

A bloke who I know well owns a business in Penrith, he’s a ST holder and was a guest of someone a couple of years back on a matchday. He tried to collar someone from the club with regards maybe sponsoring a match himself but all they wanted to do was sell him a golden gamble! He walked away and isn’t the only one over the last few years who’ve wanted to put money in but didn’t due to the club’s ineptitude.

“Yeah, I know of Barry. Bit of a fantasist” - John Courtenay 2003

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03 Dec 2019 14:53 #727 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Approach for the club
Not going to dispute anything you say Frank but we had laffys marketing guy, he wasn't a success. The extra boards and packages, will they bring in more than £45k a year?

The thing I always thought they should get into is soccer schools. Guy I know runs the coaching at rangers schools in China. I don't think they have turned a profit yet, just a few months. But Ross tells me 2 of the best in North China are run by tranmere, they bring in 400,500 k a year profit. Adam Collin didn't want to resign because he wanted to concentrate on his school. So we have the knowledge in house. I would explore that avenue.

Whatever route they go down it's difficult to imagine that new team will have more marketing and project management resources than ewm so I would still stick with them

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03 Dec 2019 15:35 #728 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Approach for the club

Markovitch wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Markovitch wrote: 20% makes it an associated company under common control. All the downsides of consolidating losses into EWM without any of the tax benefits. It's unlikely to have a huge effect but it could affect everything he does. His accountants will be shouting at him not to do that


Not if he owned the shares personally


It doesn't matter. The test is control. He controls ewm, he controls cufc, so common control exists


Once again, Marko, you miss the point

And he doesn't control EWM the family trust does

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03 Dec 2019 15:40 #729 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Approach for the club
What type of trust is it?

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03 Dec 2019 15:44 #730 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Approach for the club
One for himself one hopes

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03 Dec 2019 16:00 #731 by Waltero
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Offshore I would imagine

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03 Dec 2019 17:45 #732 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Approach for the club
They are not all the same. Why aren't you buying the club Walt? Breath taking commissions in the offshore banking industry, breath taking.

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03 Dec 2019 19:01 #733 by Waltero
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I'm well past those days Marko, small interest in Guernsey that's it. Besides in those days it wasn't my money to play with
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