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07 Feb 2020 17:05 #401 by Kessler
Replied by Kessler on topic The Politics Thread

Laffy wrote: You’re a troublemaker so leave me alone thanks


I'm not a troublemaker, I work hard. I just expect to be treated fairly. In my opinion political beliefs are irrelevant, the important thing is does that employee work well, are they the best person for the job. If they are, it's irrelevant what their personal beliefs are.

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07 Feb 2020 17:21 #402 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic The Politics Thread

Kessler wrote:

Laffy wrote: You’re a troublemaker so leave me alone thanks


I'm not a troublemaker, I work hard. I just expect to be treated fairly. In my opinion political beliefs are irrelevant, the important thing is does that employee work well, are they the best person for the job. If they are, it's irrelevant what their personal beliefs are.


All this talk Kes of " I just expect to be treated fairly" alludes to you aren't being treated fairly - go on then spill the beans?

I can only guess that you have seen the lavish lifestyle of one of these billionaires that you know and fancy a bit of that for yourself.

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07 Feb 2020 17:29 #403 by Kessler
Replied by Kessler on topic The Politics Thread
No munchy, I just don't like people assuming that because I'm a socialist I must be a lazy worker. If I worked for you then you'd see that I actually do work hard and am prepared to go the extra mile if treated well. In my opinion, political beliefs aren't relevant in the workplace and it's wrong to judge someones worth as an employee based on who they vote for. Leave the politics at the door, judge workers on how well they do the job.

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07 Feb 2020 17:32 #404 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic The Politics Thread
I like to think employees and employers-the good ones, are aligned in their interests.Im sorry to say Kes that I would be constantly looking over my shoulder wondering what you are up to.

Your equality ideology is admirable-we will never agree on the solution however
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07 Feb 2020 17:34 #405 by pigeonpete
Replied by pigeonpete on topic The Politics Thread
Kes you might think you work hard but, god, you sure moan hard too. You probably disrupt the moral of the workforce. You wouldnt last 5 minutes in the forces, someone would put you in your place very quickly.
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07 Feb 2020 17:43 #406 by Kessler
Replied by Kessler on topic The Politics Thread

Laffy wrote: I like to think employees and employers-the good ones, are aligned in their interests.Im sorry to say Kes that I would be constantly looking over my shoulder wondering what you are up to.

Your equality ideology is admirable-we will never agree on the solution however


Well that worry would be completely unfounded. As long as you treated me fairly, and gave me the same rights and opportunities as any other employee then we wouldn't have a problem. Don't judge people because of who they vote for, judge them on how good a worker they are.

An important distinction to make about your last sentence is that I believe equality of opportunity rather than absolute equality. You and me should both be entitled to go out and start a business. If you're successful and I'm not, that's fine. Equality doesn't mean we are both entitled to have a business empire, it means that we are both entitled to have the opportunity to try and build one. Absolute equality is communism, a system that has never worked and which I believe can't ever work.

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07 Feb 2020 20:28 #407 by High Street
Replied by High Street on topic The Politics Thread
How can you work hard four hours per fortnight?

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10 Feb 2020 06:21 #408 by carwash
Replied by carwash on topic The Politics Thread
It's quite astonishing that young Irish voters like young English voters with Labour have voted for a hard left anti-establishment party in Sinn Fein. It's all to do with a belief that the young are not getting a fair share of the national cake. Home ownership/ cost of renting is an issue in both countries. I think Boris should tackle this by declaring that his economic and tax policies will bring an end to the house price inflation we've always taken for granted. It would make people own houses to live in not as an investment rather like the principle of buying a car to drive not to appreciate in value. You could transform the housing market dramatically and stop the generational divide widening.

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10 Feb 2020 12:53 #409 by thesilentone
Replied by thesilentone on topic The Politics Thread

carwash wrote: It's quite astonishing that young Irish voters like young English voters with Labour have voted for a hard left anti-establishment party in Sinn Fein. It's all to do with a belief that the young are not getting a fair share of the national cake. Home ownership/ cost of renting is an issue in both countries. I think Boris should tackle this by declaring that his economic and tax policies will bring an end to the house price inflation we've always taken for granted. It would make people own houses to live in not as an investment rather like the principle of buying a car to drive not to appreciate in value. You could transform the housing market dramatically and stop the generational divide widening.


You don't need to be on a high income or have high aspirations to own your own home in Carlisle, quite the opposite. If you are unwilling to start at the bottom and work up and want a new 2/3 bedroom house with all mod-cons, then you will require a bit higher income. Anyone earning just over 20k could easily buy there first home and still live well.
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10 Feb 2020 13:03 #410 by carwash
Replied by carwash on topic The Politics Thread
True silentone which is one reason why Labour support is faltering in Carlisle and places like County Durham. However university towns and cities have generally had rocketing house prices which have left young voters thinking they'll never get on the housing ladder without a radical redistribution of wealth.

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10 Feb 2020 13:05 #411 by Mr Banks
Replied by Mr Banks on topic The Politics Thread
In my view my generation i.e. born between 1950 and 1965 say are the luckiest generation following the sacrifices of our greatest generations. People aged 15 to 35 don't have, didn't have and possibly never will have the same benefits as we did. I don't know what is the answer.

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10 Feb 2020 13:35 #412 by whytakemypostcode
Replied by whytakemypostcode on topic The Politics Thread
The Tories are the Party of 'law and order'

Recorded Crime Data: (Change from Mar 15 to Sep 18)

Knife Crime: +64%
Homicide: +37%
Vehicle: +31%
Robbery: +60%
Firearm: +31%
Card Fraud: +70%
Violence: +99%
Sexual: +79%

Guessing it's got nothing to do with cutting 21,000 police officers!
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10 Feb 2020 13:47 #413 by thesilentone
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You must get your figures from the same place as Marko.

Try the ONS, and oh, 35% of all knife crime is in our Capital under a Labour Mayor.

news.sky.com/story/kent-and-west-yorkshi...eight-years-11655918

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10 Feb 2020 13:57 #414 by thesilentone
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Despite the spike in the numbers due to:

Year ending March 2017 includes 96 victims of Hillsborough and four victims of the Westminster Bridge attack.
Year ending March 2018 includes 31 victims of the terrorist attacks that involved multiple victims, including the Manchester Arena bombing, and the London Bridge attack).

Homicides still only show an increase of 28%, so where do you get your figures ?

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommun.../yearendingmarch2018

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10 Feb 2020 14:14 #415 by thesilentone
Replied by thesilentone on topic The Politics Thread

carwash wrote: True silentone which is one reason why Labour support is faltering in Carlisle and places like County Durham. However university towns and cities have generally had rocketing house prices which have left young voters thinking they'll never get on the housing ladder without a radical redistribution of wealth.



How many do you want ?

www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/houses/liverpo...search_source=refine

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10 Feb 2020 21:43 #416 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic The Politics Thread

thesilentone wrote:

carwash wrote: It's quite astonishing that young Irish voters like young English voters with Labour have voted for a hard left anti-establishment party in Sinn Fein. It's all to do with a belief that the young are not getting a fair share of the national cake. Home ownership/ cost of renting is an issue in both countries. I think Boris should tackle this by declaring that his economic and tax policies will bring an end to the house price inflation we've always taken for granted. It would make people own houses to live in not as an investment rather like the principle of buying a car to drive not to appreciate in value. You could transform the housing market dramatically and stop the generational divide widening.


You don't need to be on a high income or have high aspirations to own your own home in Carlisle, quite the opposite. If you are unwilling to start at the bottom and work up and want a new 2/3 bedroom house with all mod-cons, then you will require a bit higher income. Anyone earning just over 20k could easily buy there first home and still live well.


Maybe in theory but definitely not in practice since the end of self-declaration unless you're in a steady job and have been for years you.ve no chance they should go back to SD as it really didn't contribute to the mortgage meltdown as most people who were using them could well afford to pay what they'd borrowed the problem was proving where the cash to do it had come from. The reason they don't do it nowadays is less to do with preventing people who can't afford them getting mortgages and more to do with this fixation they have nowadays about money laundering.
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13 Feb 2020 12:06 #417 by carwash
Replied by carwash on topic The Politics Thread
Boris is taking back control. Sajid Javid going is surprising but there did seem to be disagreement over increasing the tax burden on the better off to pay for the increased spending in the North.

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13 Feb 2020 12:23 #418 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic The Politics Thread
As I said to Kes on another thread FIFO

Fit in or [censored] off.

He will get away with it this time not the way to behave on a regular basis!

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13 Feb 2020 13:12 #419 by Arragorn
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Boris the Buffoon is rapidly morphing into Boris the Dictator with his strings being pulled by the non-elected evil genius Cumming. Obviously influenced by Trump's way of "governing". Fire anyone you don't like or make it impossible for them to carry on.
Cant see Boris lasting if he keeps on with that policy.

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13 Feb 2020 13:36 #420 by Chilledsilly
Replied by Chilledsilly on topic The Politics Thread
Disarray...as usual !
Great timing just before a massive budget ..

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13 Feb 2020 13:45 #421 by thesilentone
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It's like three card brag, you can't beat a good shuffle.
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16 Feb 2020 22:16 #422 by topstepwhinger
Replied by topstepwhinger on topic The Politics Thread
What a hypocrite Boris the buffoon is - I've just read that one of the reasons he wants to reform that great British Institution the BBC is to ban stars from cashing in on well paid second jobs. This from an MP is priceless.

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17 Feb 2020 22:41 #423 by ExiledJock
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I had a look to see if our MP had put anything on his social media during the recent bad weather. You know, thanking the people and services who came out, that kind of thing. I know the city escaped the worst of it, but you know, a mention at least or maybe a visit to the cricket club or something similar. Not a mention. Zilch.

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17 Feb 2020 22:58 #424 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic The Politics Thread
I agree that he is bad at what he does.

Shame that Corbyn ruined Labour and made him the only real candidate to vote for.

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18 Feb 2020 01:35 #425 by Bluedazblue
Replied by Bluedazblue on topic The Politics Thread
I've never been a particular fan of Stevenson as our MP, but a lot of the posts here are just flotsam and jetsam.

The fact is that there has been a systematic shift away from Labour in Carlisle and across the North, the Midland, Wales and beyond.

Complaining about Stevenson's lack of tweets about the floods, (and yes I was flooded in 2005), or what Boris's plans are for the BBC, which has lost 35% of its audience in just six years, is not going to revive a moribund Labour Party.

There needs to be a fundamental rethink as to what sort of party Labour wants to be. The party whose members vandalise phone boxes and walls along Wigton Road with 'VOTE LABOUR' and 'JC4PM', that thinks that deporting foreign criminals is wrong and wants Shamima Begun brought back to the UK is never going to win a General Election.

The new Labour leader, whoever it may be, needs to clear out the Momentum rabble, the Trotskyites and the Social Justice Warriors before it even has a sniff of a chance of electoral success.
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18 Feb 2020 06:34 - 18 Feb 2020 09:08 #426 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic The Politics Thread

Bluedazblue wrote: I've never been a particular fan of Stevenson as our MP, but a lot of the posts here are just flotsam and jetsam.

The fact is that there has been a systematic shift away from Labour in Carlisle and across the North, the Midland, Wales and beyond.

Complaining about Stevenson's lack of tweets about the floods, (and yes I was flooded in 2005), or what Boris's plans are for the BBC, which has lost 35% of its audience in just six years, is not going to revive a moribund Labour Party.

There needs to be a fundamental rethink as to what sort of party Labour wants to be. The party whose members vandalise phone boxes and walls along Wigton Road with 'VOTE LABOUR' and 'JC4PM', that thinks that deporting foreign criminals is wrong and wants Shamima Begun brought back to the UK is never going to win a General Election.

The new Labour leader, whoever it may be, needs to clear out the Momentum rabble, the Trotskyites and the Social Justice Warriors before it even has a sniff of a chance of electoral success.


But that's exactly the problem of the 3 candidates left in

One won't want to

One will be scared to

And one would probably love to but in reality, won't be able to.

So for me, even 4 years plus out I can't see how Labour can possibly win the next election short of some massive change in both personnel at the top and certainly in policy.
Last edit: 18 Feb 2020 09:08 by CCU. Reason: Fixed quote
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18 Feb 2020 07:48 #427 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic The Politics Thread
In other news it turns out the loudmouth on the cruise ship constantly criticising the government for inaction has the virus.

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18 Feb 2020 08:21 #428 by ExiledJock
Replied by ExiledJock on topic The Politics Thread
Labour will never win another election. The numbers just aren't there (especially without Scottish MPs). But it could lead a government again if it adopted PR. However, that's a long game - perhaps starting with a re-vamp of local elections before moving onto Westminster. So we're talking decades of work.

But a Tory administration - by which I mean for the next 25 years or so - is no good for anyone. It leads to complacency, corruption and a simple running out of ideas. So, however pointless is might seem calling out Stevenson or similar, it's actually democracy at work. Even if I accept Carlisle will be Tory for the foreseeable, there's no reason I have to accept his laziness or disinterest in local affairs. Running a jobs fair once a year isn't good enough and the city deserves better.

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Yesterday 00:25 #429 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic The Politics Thread

ExiledJock wrote: Labour will never win another election. The numbers just aren't there (especially without Scottish MPs). But it could lead a government again if it adopted PR. However, that's a long game - perhaps starting with a re-vamp of local elections before moving onto Westminster. So we're talking decades of work.

But a Tory administration - by which I mean for the next 25 years or so - is no good for anyone. It leads to complacency, corruption and a simple running out of ideas. So, however pointless is might seem calling out Stevenson or similar, it's actually democracy at work. Even if I accept Carlisle will be Tory for the foreseeable, there's no reason I have to accept his laziness or disinterest in local affairs. Running a jobs fair once a year isn't good enough and the city deserves better.


So drive him out then

Disrupt his meetings

Affect his private life

Of all the Conservative MP.s Leave EU targetted they had almost 100% success.

You might not get rid of a conservative MP but you might just get him replaced by a half-decent one.

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Yesterday 12:53 #430 by Chilledsilly
Replied by Chilledsilly on topic The Politics Thread
Not a chance of PR ... To democratic

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Yesterday 13:23 #431 by High Street
Replied by High Street on topic The Politics Thread
Can you remember the 2011 referendum on introducing PR?

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Yesterday 13:30 #432 by Yorkie Blue
Replied by Yorkie Blue on topic The Politics Thread

Chilledsilly wrote: Not a chance of PR ... To democratic



Referendum held in 2011, no to PR 67%, yes to PR 33%. Seems fairly democratic to me.


Fish and chips and mushy peas are all my brain and body needs

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Yesterday 22:51 #433 by Urban Designer
Replied by Urban Designer on topic The Politics Thread
Ahead of the budget do the Conservatives even need to worry about the Workington man and red wall?

Labour will never get elected without Scotland.

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Today 06:35 #434 by carwash
Replied by carwash on topic The Politics Thread
For pr to work you'd need much bigger parliamentary constituencies with several mps in each. You would also end up with smaller parties on both the right and left winning seats. The result might be that no party gained a majority so you ended up with a coalition of Labour, LibDem and SNP mps forming a government that the majority of English voters didn't want. Hardly democratic.

These proposed immigration restrictions are going to cause huge problems for places like Scotland with its fruit growing and tourist industries. When I've visited Scotland in the last few years the hotel staff have been friendly and efficient and all from the EU. Many Ukrainians working in London came on short-term fruit picking contracts in Scotland. They did 2 weeks fruit picking then got the bus to London and overstayed their visas. That's why Patel won't have another special scheme for agricultural workers.

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Today 10:06 #435 by High Street
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SNP white paper on independence stated they were going to have a points based immigration system.

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Today 10:30 #436 by thesilentone
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The Buffoon is scoring an own Goal not visiting those poor devils who are flooded out.

When he wanted there votes he was their like a rat up a drain pipe.

Putting the front man up today to make excuses is a PR disaster.

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Today 10:38 #437 by carwash
Replied by carwash on topic The Politics Thread

High Street wrote: SNP white paper on independence stated they were going to have a points based immigration system.


They are now calling for a Scottish visa which has no chance unless they rebuild Hadrian's Wall. The Scottish tourist industry looks doomed. Too few hotels in places people want to visit, too expensive and now the prospect of not enough staff.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/19/...ls-for-scottish-visa
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Today 11:12 #438 by whytakemypostcode
Replied by whytakemypostcode on topic The Politics Thread
Jimmy Buchan of the Scottish Seafood Association, and a former Tory candidate, says Boris Johnson’s changes to immigration rules will be “catastrophic” for fish processing.

Buchan: “the economic benefit to scotland is going to be catastrophic because we will not be able to compete in a global market if we cannot get the workers in the factory”.

... the same Jimmy Buchan who one told everyone to embrace Brexit for the sake of the Scottish fishing industry!

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Today 13:47 #439 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic The Politics Thread

carwash wrote: For pr to work you'd need much bigger parliamentary constituencies with several mps in each. You would also end up with smaller parties on both the right and left winning seats. The result might be that no party gained a majority so you ended up with a coalition of Labour, LibDem and SNP mps forming a government that the majority of English voters didn't want. Hardly democratic.

These proposed immigration restrictions are going to cause huge problems for places like Scotland with its fruit growing and tourist industries. When I've visited Scotland in the last few years the hotel staff have been friendly and efficient and all from the EU. Many Ukrainians working in London came on short-term fruit picking contracts in Scotland. They did 2 weeks fruit picking then got the bus to London and overstayed their visas. That's why Patel won't have another special scheme for agricultural workers.


The immigration changes won't be a problem for any company that starts to offer 40-hour contracts and reasonable wage and overtime rates
its the companies that won't whatever industry they operate in that will be in trouble as all their employees buggar off to work for the firms that do.

Which is pretty ironic really the Torries doing what the Labour party were set up to do.

As for Labour its right without a good number of Scottish Labour MP.s and of course the Northern ones they lost this time they're going to find it pretty difficult but not impossible to get back into power and the most worrying thing is that none of the current candidates seems to understand that.

My guess is that before too long a very rich man [ or a few pretty rich men ] will come along and fund the formation of a democratic labour party to which half the current MP.s will defect and they.ll win back a lot of the Northern seats in the process condemning the current Labour party to history as the more moderate unions switch to the new lot.
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Today 14:45 #440 by thesilentone
Replied by thesilentone on topic The Politics Thread
If Long-Baily wins they will be like rats off a sinking ship.

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Today 16:55 #441 by Kessler
Replied by Kessler on topic The Politics Thread

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

carwash wrote: For pr to work you'd need much bigger parliamentary constituencies with several mps in each. You would also end up with smaller parties on both the right and left winning seats. The result might be that no party gained a majority so you ended up with a coalition of Labour, LibDem and SNP mps forming a government that the majority of English voters didn't want. Hardly democratic.

These proposed immigration restrictions are going to cause huge problems for places like Scotland with its fruit growing and tourist industries. When I've visited Scotland in the last few years the hotel staff have been friendly and efficient and all from the EU. Many Ukrainians working in London came on short-term fruit picking contracts in Scotland. They did 2 weeks fruit picking then got the bus to London and overstayed their visas. That's why Patel won't have another special scheme for agricultural workers.


The immigration changes won't be a problem for any company that starts to offer 40-hour contracts and reasonable wage and overtime rates
its the companies that won't whatever industry they operate in that will be in trouble as all their employees buggar off to work for the firms that do.

Which is pretty ironic really the Torries doing what the Labour party were set up to do.

As for Labour its right without a good number of Scottish Labour MP.s and of course the Northern ones they lost this time they're going to find it pretty difficult but not impossible to get back into power and the most worrying thing is that none of the current candidates seems to understand that.

My guess is that before too long a very rich man [ or a few pretty rich men ] will come along and fund the formation of a democratic labour party to which half the current MP.s will defect and they.ll win back a lot of the Northern seats in the process condemning the current Labour party to history as the more moderate unions switch to the new lot.


That's assuming the Tories haven't outlawed unions by that point. Because who cares about employees being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account when there's more profit to be made for greedy scrounging shareholders

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Today 18:07 #442 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic The Politics Thread

Kessler wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

carwash wrote: For pr to work you'd need much bigger parliamentary constituencies with several mps in each. You would also end up with smaller parties on both the right and left winning seats. The result might be that no party gained a majority so you ended up with a coalition of Labour, LibDem and SNP mps forming a government that the majority of English voters didn't want. Hardly democratic.

These proposed immigration restrictions are going to cause huge problems for places like Scotland with its fruit growing and tourist industries. When I've visited Scotland in the last few years the hotel staff have been friendly and efficient and all from the EU. Many Ukrainians working in London came on short-term fruit picking contracts in Scotland. They did 2 weeks fruit picking then got the bus to London and overstayed their visas. That's why Patel won't have another special scheme for agricultural workers.


The immigration changes won't be a problem for any company that starts to offer 40-hour contracts and reasonable wage and overtime rates
its the companies that won't whatever industry they operate in that will be in trouble as all their employees buggar off to work for the firms that do.

Which is pretty ironic really the Torries doing what the Labour party were set up to do.

As for Labour its right without a good number of Scottish Labour MP.s and of course the Northern ones they lost this time they're going to find it pretty difficult but not impossible to get back into power and the most worrying thing is that none of the current candidates seems to understand that.

My guess is that before too long a very rich man [ or a few pretty rich men ] will come along and fund the formation of a democratic labour party to which half the current MP.s will defect and they.ll win back a lot of the Northern seats in the process condemning the current Labour party to history as the more moderate unions switch to the new lot.


That's assuming the Tories haven't outlawed unions by that point. Because who cares about employees being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account when there's more profit to be made for greedy scrounging shareholders



While they continue to back the Momentum run Labour Party the Unions are completely irrelevant.

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Today 19:03 #443 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic The Politics Thread

Kessler wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

carwash wrote: For pr to work you'd need much bigger parliamentary constituencies with several mps in each. You would also end up with smaller parties on both the right and left winning seats. The result might be that no party gained a majority so you ended up with a coalition of Labour, LibDem and SNP mps forming a government that the majority of English voters didn't want. Hardly democratic.

These proposed immigration restrictions are going to cause huge problems for places like Scotland with its fruit growing and tourist industries. When I've visited Scotland in the last few years the hotel staff have been friendly and efficient and all from the EU. Many Ukrainians working in London came on short-term fruit picking contracts in Scotland. They did 2 weeks fruit picking then got the bus to London and overstayed their visas. That's why Patel won't have another special scheme for agricultural workers.


The immigration changes won't be a problem for any company that starts to offer 40-hour contracts and reasonable wage and overtime rates
its the companies that won't whatever industry they operate in that will be in trouble as all their employees buggar off to work for the firms that do.

Which is pretty ironic really the Torries doing what the Labour party were set up to do.

As for Labour its right without a good number of Scottish Labour MP.s and of course the Northern ones they lost this time they're going to find it pretty difficult but not impossible to get back into power and the most worrying thing is that none of the current candidates seems to understand that.

My guess is that before too long a very rich man [ or a few pretty rich men ] will come along and fund the formation of a democratic labour party to which half the current MP.s will defect and they.ll win back a lot of the Northern seats in the process condemning the current Labour party to history as the more moderate unions switch to the new lot.


That's assuming the Tories haven't outlawed unions by that point. Because who cares about employees being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account when there's more profit to be made for greedy scrounging shareholders


"being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account"

Why does everything have to be a 'collective' when you talk, it is almost like needing to use gang mentality to hide behind because of the lack of steel required to stand up for oneself.

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Today 19:37 #444 by Kessler
Replied by Kessler on topic The Politics Thread

munchymagic wrote:

Kessler wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

carwash wrote: For pr to work you'd need much bigger parliamentary constituencies with several mps in each. You would also end up with smaller parties on both the right and left winning seats. The result might be that no party gained a majority so you ended up with a coalition of Labour, LibDem and SNP mps forming a government that the majority of English voters didn't want. Hardly democratic.

These proposed immigration restrictions are going to cause huge problems for places like Scotland with its fruit growing and tourist industries. When I've visited Scotland in the last few years the hotel staff have been friendly and efficient and all from the EU. Many Ukrainians working in London came on short-term fruit picking contracts in Scotland. They did 2 weeks fruit picking then got the bus to London and overstayed their visas. That's why Patel won't have another special scheme for agricultural workers.


The immigration changes won't be a problem for any company that starts to offer 40-hour contracts and reasonable wage and overtime rates
its the companies that won't whatever industry they operate in that will be in trouble as all their employees buggar off to work for the firms that do.

Which is pretty ironic really the Torries doing what the Labour party were set up to do.

As for Labour its right without a good number of Scottish Labour MP.s and of course the Northern ones they lost this time they're going to find it pretty difficult but not impossible to get back into power and the most worrying thing is that none of the current candidates seems to understand that.

My guess is that before too long a very rich man [ or a few pretty rich men ] will come along and fund the formation of a democratic labour party to which half the current MP.s will defect and they.ll win back a lot of the Northern seats in the process condemning the current Labour party to history as the more moderate unions switch to the new lot.


That's assuming the Tories haven't outlawed unions by that point. Because who cares about employees being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account when there's more profit to be made for greedy scrounging shareholders


"being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account"

Why does everything have to be a 'collective' when you talk, it is almost like needing to use gang mentality to hide behind because of the lack of steel required to stand up for oneself.


A group of employees have more bargaining power than individuals. If one individual threatens to go on strike that's a minor inconvenience for the company, if every single employee threatened to do it it's suddenly a major headache.

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Today 20:30 #445 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic The Politics Thread

Kessler wrote:

munchymagic wrote:

Kessler wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

carwash wrote: For pr to work you'd need much bigger parliamentary constituencies with several mps in each. You would also end up with smaller parties on both the right and left winning seats. The result might be that no party gained a majority so you ended up with a coalition of Labour, LibDem and SNP mps forming a government that the majority of English voters didn't want. Hardly democratic.

These proposed immigration restrictions are going to cause huge problems for places like Scotland with its fruit growing and tourist industries. When I've visited Scotland in the last few years the hotel staff have been friendly and efficient and all from the EU. Many Ukrainians working in London came on short-term fruit picking contracts in Scotland. They did 2 weeks fruit picking then got the bus to London and overstayed their visas. That's why Patel won't have another special scheme for agricultural workers.


The immigration changes won't be a problem for any company that starts to offer 40-hour contracts and reasonable wage and overtime rates
its the companies that won't whatever industry they operate in that will be in trouble as all their employees buggar off to work for the firms that do.

Which is pretty ironic really the Torries doing what the Labour party were set up to do.

As for Labour its right without a good number of Scottish Labour MP.s and of course the Northern ones they lost this time they're going to find it pretty difficult but not impossible to get back into power and the most worrying thing is that none of the current candidates seems to understand that.

My guess is that before too long a very rich man [ or a few pretty rich men ] will come along and fund the formation of a democratic labour party to which half the current MP.s will defect and they.ll win back a lot of the Northern seats in the process condemning the current Labour party to history as the more moderate unions switch to the new lot.


That's assuming the Tories haven't outlawed unions by that point. Because who cares about employees being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account when there's more profit to be made for greedy scrounging shareholders


"being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account"

Why does everything have to be a 'collective' when you talk, it is almost like needing to use gang mentality to hide behind because of the lack of steel required to stand up for oneself.


A group of employees have more bargaining power than individuals. If one individual threatens to go on strike that's a minor inconvenience for the company, if every single employee threatened to do it it's suddenly a major headache.


Has nobody told you strikes are outdated old hat and usually ineffective? industrial terrorism is much more effective nowadays for instance last time there was a dispute on London Underground it went on for a month the unions got nowhere then one day 500 ticket machines were put out of operation that night LU got an e.mail saying if they didn't get a suitable response by Friday it would be 5000 machines next time how long do you think it was before they were round the table ?

Have the Northern drivers been out on strike? No, but they've been decimating the timetable simply using the weapons they have where they all refuse to work on Sundays Northern have to pull some newer drivers with fewer rights in to maintain some sort of service and that then has a major knock-on thru the week. It got to the point where Northern simply had no option than to give in and give the drivers what they wanted so long as the drivers keep signing on to work on Sundays. In the last month, cancellations are down by 85%

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Today 20:31 #446 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic The Politics Thread

Kessler wrote:

munchymagic wrote:

Kessler wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

carwash wrote: For pr to work you'd need much bigger parliamentary constituencies with several mps in each. You would also end up with smaller parties on both the right and left winning seats. The result might be that no party gained a majority so you ended up with a coalition of Labour, LibDem and SNP mps forming a government that the majority of English voters didn't want. Hardly democratic.

These proposed immigration restrictions are going to cause huge problems for places like Scotland with its fruit growing and tourist industries. When I've visited Scotland in the last few years the hotel staff have been friendly and efficient and all from the EU. Many Ukrainians working in London came on short-term fruit picking contracts in Scotland. They did 2 weeks fruit picking then got the bus to London and overstayed their visas. That's why Patel won't have another special scheme for agricultural workers.


The immigration changes won't be a problem for any company that starts to offer 40-hour contracts and reasonable wage and overtime rates
its the companies that won't whatever industry they operate in that will be in trouble as all their employees buggar off to work for the firms that do.

Which is pretty ironic really the Torries doing what the Labour party were set up to do.

As for Labour its right without a good number of Scottish Labour MP.s and of course the Northern ones they lost this time they're going to find it pretty difficult but not impossible to get back into power and the most worrying thing is that none of the current candidates seems to understand that.

My guess is that before too long a very rich man [ or a few pretty rich men ] will come along and fund the formation of a democratic labour party to which half the current MP.s will defect and they.ll win back a lot of the Northern seats in the process condemning the current Labour party to history as the more moderate unions switch to the new lot.


That's assuming the Tories haven't outlawed unions by that point. Because who cares about employees being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account when there's more profit to be made for greedy scrounging shareholders


"being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account"

Why does everything have to be a 'collective' when you talk, it is almost like needing to use gang mentality to hide behind because of the lack of steel required to stand up for oneself.


A group of employees have more bargaining power than individuals. If one individual threatens to go on strike that's a minor inconvenience for the company, if every single employee threatened to do it it's suddenly a major headache.


What would be wrong with trying it yourself first?

I see where you are coming from with causing the company headache but I could never strike unless I truly believed in the cause - H&S, conditions or something then yes but begging for more money with a baying crowd I find distasteful.

I also learned that people who twine get nowt - once I was working for a haulier (not the lads in green) and three of us did the same job covering the role in shifts or overlapping if needed, the other two lads after a while had a moan at the bosses about a pay rise to the extent that all three of us were pulled into the office individually.

It didn't go down well with the hierarchy and the other two were told that their manner was not the proper etiquette and there was no money for any pay rises, they then pulled me in and whilst I was expecting a bollocking for some reason they thanked me for buckling down with the job and that there was no money but they found me £500 a year pay rise in their budget but not to say anything and when it came to redundancies they got rid of the other two and kept me on.

In this real life story Kes your collective bargaining would have got you nowhere and you would have been one of the other two.

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Today 20:44 #447 by Kessler
Replied by Kessler on topic The Politics Thread

munchymagic wrote:

Kessler wrote:

munchymagic wrote:

Kessler wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

carwash wrote: For pr to work you'd need much bigger parliamentary constituencies with several mps in each. You would also end up with smaller parties on both the right and left winning seats. The result might be that no party gained a majority so you ended up with a coalition of Labour, LibDem and SNP mps forming a government that the majority of English voters didn't want. Hardly democratic.

These proposed immigration restrictions are going to cause huge problems for places like Scotland with its fruit growing and tourist industries. When I've visited Scotland in the last few years the hotel staff have been friendly and efficient and all from the EU. Many Ukrainians working in London came on short-term fruit picking contracts in Scotland. They did 2 weeks fruit picking then got the bus to London and overstayed their visas. That's why Patel won't have another special scheme for agricultural workers.


The immigration changes won't be a problem for any company that starts to offer 40-hour contracts and reasonable wage and overtime rates
its the companies that won't whatever industry they operate in that will be in trouble as all their employees buggar off to work for the firms that do.

Which is pretty ironic really the Torries doing what the Labour party were set up to do.

As for Labour its right without a good number of Scottish Labour MP.s and of course the Northern ones they lost this time they're going to find it pretty difficult but not impossible to get back into power and the most worrying thing is that none of the current candidates seems to understand that.

My guess is that before too long a very rich man [ or a few pretty rich men ] will come along and fund the formation of a democratic labour party to which half the current MP.s will defect and they.ll win back a lot of the Northern seats in the process condemning the current Labour party to history as the more moderate unions switch to the new lot.


That's assuming the Tories haven't outlawed unions by that point. Because who cares about employees being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account when there's more profit to be made for greedy scrounging shareholders


"being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account"

Why does everything have to be a 'collective' when you talk, it is almost like needing to use gang mentality to hide behind because of the lack of steel required to stand up for oneself.


A group of employees have more bargaining power than individuals. If one individual threatens to go on strike that's a minor inconvenience for the company, if every single employee threatened to do it it's suddenly a major headache.


What would be wrong with trying it yourself first?

I see where you are coming from with causing the company headache but I could never strike unless I truly believed in the cause - H&S, conditions or something then yes but begging for more money with a baying crowd I find distasteful.

I also learned that people who twine get nowt - once I was working for a haulier (not the lads in green) and three of us did the same job covering the role in shifts or overlapping if needed, the other two lads after a while had a moan at the bosses about a pay rise to the extent that all three of us were pulled into the office individually.

It didn't go down well with the hierarchy and the other two were told that their manner was not the proper etiquette and there was no money for any pay rises, they then pulled me in and whilst I was expecting a bollocking for some reason they thanked me for buckling down with the job and that there was no money but they found me £500 a year pay rise in their budget but not to say anything and when it came to redundancies they got rid of the other two and kept me on.

In this real life story Kes your collective bargaining would have got you nowhere and you would have been one of the other two.


It's noble to say stand up for oneself individually but you have to face facts, with few exceptions a group of people always have more power in a situation than an individual. I would only strike if I believed in the cause too. Believe it or not, I do want the companies I work for to be successful. I may not agree with the specific amount the boss gets paid relative to other staff, but that's a different issue. If the company isn't successful, we might be out of a job and nobody wants that. I wouldn't find it distasteful to ask for extra pay if I felt it was deserved, and the rise would be a fair amount.

Bit confused by the example you gave, there was no money for pay rises but apparently there was £500 for you? So maybe the other two had a valid point after all? I understand what you say about knuckling down and getting on with it. I don't have a problem with that and anyone who knows me knows I don't have a problem wit hard work. But when you keep hearing about how much more profit the company is making each year, yet they keep telling you there is no money to give you a raise, I think it's fair to question whether they are telling the truth. If they are making more and more profit, surely that means they do have more money, and it would be reasonable to expect that your wages will go up to reflect that increase?

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Today 20:50 #448 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic The Politics Thread

Kessler wrote:

munchymagic wrote:

Kessler wrote:

munchymagic wrote:

Kessler wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

carwash wrote: For pr to work you'd need much bigger parliamentary constituencies with several mps in each. You would also end up with smaller parties on both the right and left winning seats. The result might be that no party gained a majority so you ended up with a coalition of Labour, LibDem and SNP mps forming a government that the majority of English voters didn't want. Hardly democratic.

These proposed immigration restrictions are going to cause huge problems for places like Scotland with its fruit growing and tourist industries. When I've visited Scotland in the last few years the hotel staff have been friendly and efficient and all from the EU. Many Ukrainians working in London came on short-term fruit picking contracts in Scotland. They did 2 weeks fruit picking then got the bus to London and overstayed their visas. That's why Patel won't have another special scheme for agricultural workers.


The immigration changes won't be a problem for any company that starts to offer 40-hour contracts and reasonable wage and overtime rates
its the companies that won't whatever industry they operate in that will be in trouble as all their employees buggar off to work for the firms that do.

Which is pretty ironic really the Torries doing what the Labour party were set up to do.

As for Labour its right without a good number of Scottish Labour MP.s and of course the Northern ones they lost this time they're going to find it pretty difficult but not impossible to get back into power and the most worrying thing is that none of the current candidates seems to understand that.

My guess is that before too long a very rich man [ or a few pretty rich men ] will come along and fund the formation of a democratic labour party to which half the current MP.s will defect and they.ll win back a lot of the Northern seats in the process condemning the current Labour party to history as the more moderate unions switch to the new lot.


That's assuming the Tories haven't outlawed unions by that point. Because who cares about employees being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account when there's more profit to be made for greedy scrounging shareholders


"being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account"

Why does everything have to be a 'collective' when you talk, it is almost like needing to use gang mentality to hide behind because of the lack of steel required to stand up for oneself.


A group of employees have more bargaining power than individuals. If one individual threatens to go on strike that's a minor inconvenience for the company, if every single employee threatened to do it it's suddenly a major headache.


What would be wrong with trying it yourself first?

I see where you are coming from with causing the company headache but I could never strike unless I truly believed in the cause - H&S, conditions or something then yes but begging for more money with a baying crowd I find distasteful.

I also learned that people who twine get nowt - once I was working for a haulier (not the lads in green) and three of us did the same job covering the role in shifts or overlapping if needed, the other two lads after a while had a moan at the bosses about a pay rise to the extent that all three of us were pulled into the office individually.

It didn't go down well with the hierarchy and the other two were told that their manner was not the proper etiquette and there was no money for any pay rises, they then pulled me in and whilst I was expecting a bollocking for some reason they thanked me for buckling down with the job and that there was no money but they found me £500 a year pay rise in their budget but not to say anything and when it came to redundancies they got rid of the other two and kept me on.

In this real life story Kes your collective bargaining would have got you nowhere and you would have been one of the other two.


It's noble to say stand up for oneself individually but you have to face facts, with few exceptions a group of people always have more power in a situation than an individual. I would only strike if I believed in the cause too. Believe it or not, I do want the companies I work for to be successful. I may not agree with the specific amount the boss gets paid relative to other staff, but that's a different issue. If the company isn't successful, we might be out of a job and nobody wants that. I wouldn't find it distasteful to ask for extra pay if I felt it was deserved, and the rise would be a fair amount.

Bit confused by the example you gave, there was no money for pay rises but apparently there was £500 for you? So maybe the other two had a valid point after all? I understand what you say about knuckling down and getting on with it. I don't have a problem with that and anyone who knows me knows I don't have a problem wit hard work. But when you keep hearing about how much more profit the company is making each year, yet they keep telling you there is no money to give you a raise, I think it's fair to question whether they are telling the truth. If they are making more and more profit, surely that means they do have more money, and it would be reasonable to expect that your wages will go up to reflect that increase?


But nobody on here does know you tho, do they ?
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Today 21:01 #449 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic The Politics Thread

Kessler wrote:

munchymagic wrote:

Kessler wrote:

munchymagic wrote:

Kessler wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

carwash wrote: For pr to work you'd need much bigger parliamentary constituencies with several mps in each. You would also end up with smaller parties on both the right and left winning seats. The result might be that no party gained a majority so you ended up with a coalition of Labour, LibDem and SNP mps forming a government that the majority of English voters didn't want. Hardly democratic.

These proposed immigration restrictions are going to cause huge problems for places like Scotland with its fruit growing and tourist industries. When I've visited Scotland in the last few years the hotel staff have been friendly and efficient and all from the EU. Many Ukrainians working in London came on short-term fruit picking contracts in Scotland. They did 2 weeks fruit picking then got the bus to London and overstayed their visas. That's why Patel won't have another special scheme for agricultural workers.


The immigration changes won't be a problem for any company that starts to offer 40-hour contracts and reasonable wage and overtime rates
its the companies that won't whatever industry they operate in that will be in trouble as all their employees buggar off to work for the firms that do.

Which is pretty ironic really the Torries doing what the Labour party were set up to do.

As for Labour its right without a good number of Scottish Labour MP.s and of course the Northern ones they lost this time they're going to find it pretty difficult but not impossible to get back into power and the most worrying thing is that none of the current candidates seems to understand that.

My guess is that before too long a very rich man [ or a few pretty rich men ] will come along and fund the formation of a democratic labour party to which half the current MP.s will defect and they.ll win back a lot of the Northern seats in the process condemning the current Labour party to history as the more moderate unions switch to the new lot.


That's assuming the Tories haven't outlawed unions by that point. Because who cares about employees being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account when there's more profit to be made for greedy scrounging shareholders


"being able to use collective bargaining to hold bosses to account"

Why does everything have to be a 'collective' when you talk, it is almost like needing to use gang mentality to hide behind because of the lack of steel required to stand up for oneself.


A group of employees have more bargaining power than individuals. If one individual threatens to go on strike that's a minor inconvenience for the company, if every single employee threatened to do it it's suddenly a major headache.


What would be wrong with trying it yourself first?

I see where you are coming from with causing the company headache but I could never strike unless I truly believed in the cause - H&S, conditions or something then yes but begging for more money with a baying crowd I find distasteful.

I also learned that people who twine get nowt - once I was working for a haulier (not the lads in green) and three of us did the same job covering the role in shifts or overlapping if needed, the other two lads after a while had a moan at the bosses about a pay rise to the extent that all three of us were pulled into the office individually.

It didn't go down well with the hierarchy and the other two were told that their manner was not the proper etiquette and there was no money for any pay rises, they then pulled me in and whilst I was expecting a bollocking for some reason they thanked me for buckling down with the job and that there was no money but they found me £500 a year pay rise in their budget but not to say anything and when it came to redundancies they got rid of the other two and kept me on.

In this real life story Kes your collective bargaining would have got you nowhere and you would have been one of the other two.


It's noble to say stand up for oneself individually but you have to face facts, with few exceptions a group of people always have more power in a situation than an individual. I would only strike if I believed in the cause too. Believe it or not, I do want the companies I work for to be successful. I may not agree with the specific amount the boss gets paid relative to other staff, but that's a different issue. If the company isn't successful, we might be out of a job and nobody wants that. I wouldn't find it distasteful to ask for extra pay if I felt it was deserved, and the rise would be a fair amount.

Bit confused by the example you gave, there was no money for pay rises but apparently there was £500 for you? So maybe the other two had a valid point after all? I understand what you say about knuckling down and getting on with it. I don't have a problem with that and anyone who knows me knows I don't have a problem wit hard work. But when you keep hearing about how much more profit the company is making each year, yet they keep telling you there is no money to give you a raise, I think it's fair to question whether they are telling the truth. If they are making more and more profit, surely that means they do have more money, and it would be reasonable to expect that your wages will go up to reflect that increase?


They always tell you that there is no money Kes, especially when there are shareholders to appease.

I actually didn't think that we were on too bad a deal to be honest, the money wasn't too bad and after doing really long hours I appreciated doing eight hour shifts that were mainly on days so I didn't have any reason to rock the boat.

Some people always want more though - for example you are already looking at reasons for them giving you more money in a job that you were not in, surely you can see that your employers would see you as a pain in the arse once you started telling them how to spend their profits, especially when you want them to spend it on you?

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