HS2 Railway

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11 Feb 2020 09:41 #1 by CCU
HS2 Railway was created by CCU
Fantastic to see it getting the go ahead today IMO.

Nigel Harris explains why it’s such a good idea perfectly here:


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11 Feb 2020 09:56 #2 by ParcelPete
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We should do a sweepstake to guess the final cost,i reckon.£186 billion.

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11 Feb 2020 10:24 #3 by Dancingbear
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Lord Adonis on radio now saying no more reviews just get on with it.

There's only one way of life and that's your own!!!

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11 Feb 2020 10:46 #4 by thesilentone
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It is a great project, and the only serious Rail Infrastructure work since the Victorians.

When has any major Government project ever been delivered on budget ?

All we need know is a Private operator that pays over the odds, and bans Unions..............
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11 Feb 2020 11:02 #5 by Arragorn
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A glorified waste of public money that will do nowt for us up here in Cumbria.
By the time it reaches Birmingham (if it ever does) the cost will be so eye watering that the rest of the project north of Birmingham wont happen.
You just need to look at the fiasco that is Crossrail!

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11 Feb 2020 11:08 #6 by Laffy
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11 Feb 2020 11:14 #7 by CCU
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Article for you Arragorn:


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11 Feb 2020 11:57 #8 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic HS2 Railway

Laffy wrote: This is a great analysis of Adonis

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/20/...ture-brussels-gravy/


Can’t read the article Andrew and do t know that much about him but in this instance I think he’s dead right. Just get the bloody thing done. Ironically there was a Tory mp on afterwards from Leicester who’s dead against it.

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11 Feb 2020 12:09 #9 by thesilentone
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It's here, but a load of drivel............Written by the Telegraph, not Adonis and almost a year old.


The year 2019 is already shaping up to be very strange indeed. A group of vegans has brought London to a shuddering halt. Politicians of all persuasions have ignored the largest democratic mandate in British history. Aston Villa has a serious chance of promotion. But perhaps the most astonishing development has been the sight of serial appointee Lord Adonis participating in the democratic process.

This week the Labour peer, a former policy adviser to the Blair government, announced his attention to stand as an MEP in the South West, where he will face off against Ann Widdecombe (expect fireworks). Hedging his bets, perhaps, Adonis has agreed to “suspend”, rather than “resign”, his seat in the House of Lords while doing so. Adonis, a railway fanatic, well understands the charm of two gravy trains getting up to steam at the same time.

It is depressing enough that nearly three years after the referendum, Britain has been drawn into the charade of European elections. But the sight of Lord Adonis sitting in Brussels would be a viscerally painful reminder of the crisis assailing our democracy; no one better embodies the disconnect between ordinary people and a remote, self-interested elite than this unelected peer.
Over decades, Adonis has built an influential political career based on patronage and preferment. His sole election victory came as a Lib Dem local councillor in Oxford nearly 30 years ago. The archetypal quangocrat, Adonis has enjoyed a string of unelected advisory posts, serving on think tank boards and counselling government on education and transport.

His influence has been extraordinary, with successes like academies offset by startling failures like HS2. Bucking the trend set by Archimedes and Churchill, who both came up with inspired ideas while bathing, Adonis famously devised the hare-brained high-speed rail scheme in 2008 while soaking in his bath. He once opened a speech with the phrase: “I have three children. A son, a daughter and HS2.” (As children go, HS2 is less Pollyanna and rather more We Need to Talk About Kevin.)

Unlike most parents, Adonis pockets £1,900 each month for two days’ work consulting on his bloated brainchild. Even the title he chose when receiving his peerage – Baron Adonis of Camden Town – added insult to injury. Camden is the area of London set to be most devastated by HS2’s construction.

In many ways, HS2 is a microcosm of the EU itself. Both are awash with cronyism and self-serving largesse. Dominated by a small clutch of faceless bureaucrats and committees, HS2 continues to expand in the face of public opinion and eye-watering costs – one recent estimate put the project’s final bill at a staggering £156 billion.
No surprise, then, that its architect, who dismisses the project’s sweeping unpopularity, is equally scornful of public opinion elsewhere. Since the referendum, he has campaigned antagonistically against Brexit, shocking many in 2017 by comparing it to Nazi appeasement, and recently accusing civil servants conducting vital no-deal planning of treachery and collusion. Where other advocates of a second referendum try to charm and build bridges, Adonis remains immovable. Earlier this week, he served as an unwitting Brexit Party campaigner by urging Brexiteers “not to vote Labour” – less than helpful in the 70 per cent of Labour constituencies that voted Leave.

Adonis’s candidacy also reveals the EU’s secondary role as a retirement home for has-been politicians, where they can also make serious money in the twilight of their careers, or, in Adonis’s case, after failing to gain a mandate in national politics. Peter Mandelson became a commissioner in 2004 after resigning from Cabinet twice over corruption scandals. Jean-Claude Juncker, too, was forced to step down as Luxembourg’s PM over a spying scandal, and became president of the European Commission less than a year later.
Perhaps most infamously, Neil Kinnock was appointed to the EC after multiple knockouts by Mrs Thatcher, resigning in 1999 over a corruption scandal, before being swiftly reappointed to serve another five years. Life aboard the Brussels gravy train made millionaires of Kinnock and his wife, Glenys, and enriched both their children. Adonis would surely continue this illustrious tradition.

Labour may come to regret ushering hardline Europhiles on to the ballot paper, which will certainly complicate their transparent attempt to be all things to all people on Brexit. But if Adonis wins, it will be a victory for everything Brexiteers voted to destroy. What more perfect symbol of the remote EU – and our depressing failure to leave it – than the sight of Adonis with his snout in yet another trough?
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11 Feb 2020 13:00 #10 by CCU
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11 Feb 2020 13:17 #11 by Arragorn
Replied by Arragorn on topic HS2 Railway
Well I hope when everyone's taxes are increased to pay for it as they surely will you will still think its worthwhile.
Nothing the Government is involved in cost wise ever comes in anywhere near budget so watch the latest estimate escalate before any track is laid let alone trains running on it.
A fraction of the cost of HS2 could significantly improve our rail services between Carlisle &Newcastle & the Coast line to Barrow but as that doesn't benefit London it will likely never happen.
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11 Feb 2020 13:19 #12 by markredfox73
Replied by markredfox73 on topic HS2 Railway
Vanity project will have no bearing to Cumbria in any shape or form...a colossal waste of money..i dread to think what they will charge but one thing is for sure i will never use it.

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11 Feb 2020 13:25 #13 by thesilentone
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Arragorn wrote: Well I hope when everyone's taxes are increased to pay for it as they surely will you will still think its worthwhile.
Nothing the Government is involved in cost wise ever comes in anywhere near budget so watch the latest estimate escalate before any track is laid let alone trains running on it.
A fraction of the cost of HS2 could significantly improve our rail services between Carlisle &Newcastle & the Coast line to Barrow but as that doesn't benefit London it will likely never happen.


Don't worry, they'll be flogging bonds shortly at advantageous rates, git some bowt..........

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11 Feb 2020 13:27 #14 by Arragorn
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Be worth about as much as B shares in CUFC

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11 Feb 2020 13:34 #15 by topstepwhinger
Replied by topstepwhinger on topic HS2 Railway
Of course they should just get on with it, we already lag behind most other developed countries regarding public transport and the longer we have prevaricated the more the cost has risen.
I see the usual small minded ones are the ones dead against it.
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11 Feb 2020 13:39 - 11 Feb 2020 13:39 #16 by CCU
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Arragorn wrote: A fraction of the cost of HS2 could significantly improve our rail services between Carlisle &Newcastle & the Coast line to Barrow but as that doesn't benefit London it will likely never happen.


In the last couple of years the Tyne Valley has seen frequency of service double. Couple more Sunday services each direction too. Rolling stock is also being upgraded.

The Cumbrian Coast has an improved service, and the Sunday service has seen significant improvements.

What else do you propose out of interest?

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Last edit: 11 Feb 2020 13:39 by CCU.

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11 Feb 2020 13:40 #17 by Flatcap
Replied by Flatcap on topic HS2 Railway
Could the North end of HS2 been built first, rather than the section from London?
It would cost far less per mile of track and we could learn from problems encountered there which would save time and money in construction of the southern section.

As regards the environmental impact.
A fast train service should greatly reduce the need for internal flights within the UK. Boris said that it takes longer to get to Heathrow by taxi from central London than it would take on HS2 to get from London to Birmingham.
A lot of passenger traffic would be taken off the present main lines enabling more freight to be carried on the existing lines. Bear in mind that one freight train can carry as much cargo as fifty lorries,You just have to see the number of foreign lorries using our road network to realize how much long distance travel is done by lorries.
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11 Feb 2020 13:47 #18 by Southernblue
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Flatcap wrote: Could the North end of HS2 been built first, rather than the section from London?
It would cost far less per mile of track and we could learn from problems encountered there which would save time and money in construction of the southern section.

As regards the environmental impact.
A fast train service should greatly reduce the need for internal flights within the UK. Boris said that it takes longer to get to Heathrow by taxi from central London than it would take on HS2 to get from London to Birmingham.
A lot of passenger traffic would be taken off the present main lines enabling more freight to be carried on the existing lines. Bear in mind that one freight train can carry as much cargo as fifty lorries,You just have to see the number of foreign lorries using our road network to realize how much long distance travel is done by lorries.


Why would you use a taxi from central London to get to Heathrow when the Heathrow Express runs regularly and gets you from central London (Paddington) to Heathrow in 15 minutes?

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11 Feb 2020 14:45 #19 by carwash
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Southernblue you obviously live the West side of London to call Paddington central London. At least when Crossrail is eventually finished Heathrow will be easier and quicker to get to by public transport.

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11 Feb 2020 14:53 #20 by pacirv
Replied by pacirv on topic HS2 Railway
Total waste of money along with his latest idea of a bridge between Northern Ireland and south west Scotland far more important things that need money spent on them like the NHS road repairs and re opening train lines that would benefit more than just the big cities.

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11 Feb 2020 15:01 #21 by Southernblue
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carwash wrote: Southernblue you obviously live the West side of London to call Paddington central London. At least when Crossrail is eventually finished Heathrow will be easier and quicker to get to by public transport.


Funnily enough I do, but Paddington is easy to reach by Tube and agree Crossrail will make it even easier from most other parts of Central London so using a taxi to get out from Central London to Heathrow is just another government spin tactic, it's like saying it'd be quicker to get to Birmingham on HS2 than walking or cycling, just the same relevance.

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11 Feb 2020 15:17 #22 by ParcelPete
Replied by ParcelPete on topic HS2 Railway

Flatcap wrote: Could the North end of HS2 been built first, rather than the section from London?
It would cost far less per mile of track and we could learn from problems encountered there which would save time and money in construction of the southern section.

As regards the environmental impact.
A fast train service should greatly reduce the need for internal flights within the UK. Boris said that it takes longer to get to Heathrow by taxi from central London than it would take on HS2 to get from London to Birmingham.
A lot of passenger traffic would be taken off the present main lines enabling more freight to be carried on the existing lines. Bear in mind that one freight train can carry as much cargo as fifty lorries,You just have to see the number of foreign lorries using our road network to realize how much long distance travel is done by lorries.


"A fast train service should greatly reduce the need for internal flights within the UK"
Except flying will probably be 75% cheaper.
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11 Feb 2020 15:27 #23 by Arragorn
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CCU wrote:

Arragorn wrote: A fraction of the cost of HS2 could significantly improve our rail services between Carlisle &Newcastle & the Coast line to Barrow but as that doesn't benefit London it will likely never happen.


In the last couple of years the Tyne Valley has seen frequency of service double. Couple more Sunday services each direction too. Rolling stock is also being upgraded.

The Cumbrian Coast has an improved service, and the Sunday service has seen significant improvements.

What else do you propose out of interest?


I don't disagree that there have been improvements but it still takes as long to get to Newcastle by the " fast" train as it does to get to Glasgow which is about 40 miles further. Speeding up the services and some new trains instead of hand me downs from other parts of Northern & Scotrail would also help. Same applies to the Barrow line. 2 and a half hours for an 85 mile journey. The old steam trains probably did it quicker!

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11 Feb 2020 15:35 #24 by markredfox73
Replied by markredfox73 on topic HS2 Railway
Folk have an obsession from getting from A to B so quick all about bloody commuters ffs.....trains are also for enjoying the countryside too..tourism is bigger than its ever been in Cumbria and many other parts of the UK.

We have improved out west and the tyne valley line...its just the punctuality that needs addressed now...

For me I hope the Waverley line gets funding to come right through opening a gateway to tourism in the Scottish borders.

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11 Feb 2020 16:52 #25 by Flatcap
Replied by Flatcap on topic HS2 Railway
Apart from a taxi ride, wouldn't it be easier to just catch HS2. than a train or tube to Heathrow, then a short haul flight north?

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11 Feb 2020 17:15 #26 by Arragorn
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Yes if you want to wait 50+ years for it to reach here (if ever)

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11 Feb 2020 18:14 #27 by thesilentone
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Commuting is the way, work in the South, live in the North, best of both Worlds.

Lot's of people commuting to London on a daily basis, some as far as the West Country to make the loot and retire early to the Country Pile.

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11 Feb 2020 23:20 #28 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic HS2 Railway
With taking more lorries off the road just imagine the improved state of the motorways and having to spend less on maintaining them meaning they can still stick the road tax up but cream a bit from the top to go towards HS2.

Then of course they will think of other ways of how to scam money from people to go towards the project, another would be to stick a new 'motorway tariff' on lorries who use the road where rail links are in operation making it not financially viable for them to use the road unless the goods are of high value therefore forcing the foreign drivers to drop their fruit and veg into a rail terminal down south to travel up north - there will be loads of complaints from the EU but they need our trade and we call the shots.

All the Government will do is say that it is our new 'green' policy and quite frankly you lot should be doing the same thing.

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11 Feb 2020 23:24 #29 by 1954Blue
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And mentioning building bridges how many millions did Johnson waste on his London Garden Bridge project?

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12 Feb 2020 09:22 #30 by sirjimmyglass
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I for one am just please that we've finally located that forest full of magic money trees.
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12 Feb 2020 09:38 #31 by Chilledsilly
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I remember reading years ago how fantastic the Japanese bullet train was ...200 mph , but oh no, we need a train that goes 250 mph , that needs super fast track not the track that would have cost a fraction of the cost ... but hey ho , itll get the knobs commuting into london 20 mins faster..yes itll save making some interal flights, so why build another runway ..and one thing for sure it wont cost £102 billion ..

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12 Feb 2020 12:22 #32 by thesilentone
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munchymagic wrote: With taking more lorries off the road just imagine the improved state of the motorways and having to spend less on maintaining them meaning they can still stick the road tax up but cream a bit from the top to go towards HS2.

Then of course they will think of other ways of how to scam money from people to go towards the project, another would be to stick a new 'motorway tariff' on lorries who use the road where rail links are in operation making it not financially viable for them to use the road unless the goods are of high value therefore forcing the foreign drivers to drop their fruit and veg into a rail terminal down south to travel up north - there will be loads of complaints from the EU but they need our trade and we call the shots.

All the Government will do is say that it is our new 'green' policy and quite frankly you lot should be doing the same thing.


Which is exactly what we used to do, London Road was the drop of for local goods delivered by train, then collected and distributed locally. hell, we used to deliver milk with electric vehicles ! As the old saying go's " everything go's full circle "
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12 Feb 2020 12:24 #33 by Markovitch
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See Boris's father is due a £4.2m compensation payout for a house he hasn't been able to sell for years if HS goes ahead. Some guys have all the luck

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12 Feb 2020 12:39 #34 by Arnyt2
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i agree with markredfox .open up waverley line ,another good diversion route if west is closed .like it used to be.leeds right tr.to edinburgh.with a higher speed limit.

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12 Feb 2020 17:30 #35 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic HS2 Railway

Flatcap wrote: Could the North end of HS2 been built first, rather than the section from London?
It would cost far less per mile of track and we could learn from problems encountered there which would save time and money in construction of the southern section.

As regards the environmental impact.
A fast train service should greatly reduce the need for internal flights within the UK. Boris said that it takes longer to get to Heathrow by taxi from central London than it would take on HS2 to get from London to Birmingham.
A lot of passenger traffic would be taken off the present main lines enabling more freight to be carried on the existing lines. Bear in mind that one freight train can carry as much cargo as fifty lorries,You just have to see the number of foreign lorries using our road network to realize how much long distance travel is done by lorries.


Now here's a radical idea why couldn't they have started in four places London Birmingham Manchester and Leeds at the same time that way we could have had the lot finished in ten years instead of 30.

And the bit I don't get and which is what will have cost a vast amount of the money is why in London did they insist on it going to Euston and bulldozing [ after paying vastly over the odds] acres of central London when 95% of people using Euston then continue their journey by public transport or taxi. They could have just terminated it at Old Oak Common which will be served by 16 trains an hour once Crossrail opens which will connect with any number of other lines at any number of interchange stations meaning peoples onward journeys once they left HS2 would be no longer or stressful than they will be by the line going directly into Euston.

And another thing on the cost that should be revealed is how much environmental issues have added to the total. You get all these loony eco-warriors protesting somehow I don't think they'd be so keen if every time a tunnel or cutting was added they were given the bill for the extra cost of it.

And one thing to come out of yesterdays announcement We now know why the Dft have been so reticent to get on and do the extra platforms and the corridor at Picadilly in Manchester and its, because they can save the cost by letting the HS2 infrastructure take some of the strain instead only problem, is we needed it 10 years ago not in 20 years time.
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12 Feb 2020 17:42 #36 by NORTHERNSOUL
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Flatcap wrote: Could the North end of HS2 been built first, rather than the section from London?
It would cost far less per mile of track and we could learn from problems encountered there which would save time and money in construction of the southern section.

As regards the environmental impact.
A fast train service should greatly reduce the need for internal flights within the UK. Boris said that it takes longer to get to Heathrow by taxi from central London than it would take on HS2 to get from London to Birmingham.
A lot of passenger traffic would be taken off the present main lines enabling more freight to be carried on the existing lines. Bear in mind that one freight train can carry as much cargo as fifty lorries,You just have to see the number of foreign lorries using our road network to realize how much long distance travel is done by lorries.


Aye I .ve never understood why a British freight company doesn't set up a network of routes from locations all over Europe where companies can drop their 40ft boxes onto an overnight train which takes them into a massive yard in say Belgium where they are reconfigured for onward travel to their destinations. You never see on the British Rail network containers belonging to foreign companies I bet the names on the top 6 Tesco Malcolm Stobbarts etc account for over 90% of the boxes moved.
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12 Feb 2020 17:43 #37 by thesilentone
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Get them Chinese guys that built the Hospital in 8 days, you'd have the lot built in a couple of years.

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15 Feb 2020 11:08 #38 by thesilentone
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Just the wake up call we need as we prepare to leave the EU.

news.sky.com/story/chinese-company-in-pr...o-build-hs2-11934417

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16 Feb 2020 11:30 #39 by ExiledJock
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Well, we're already awash with dodgy Russian money so we should get used to Great Britain PLC snuggling up to those who will see us as an easy cash cow going forward.

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18 Feb 2020 18:50 #40 by Seekaye
Replied by Seekaye on topic HS2 Railway

CCU wrote:

Arragorn wrote: A fraction of the cost of HS2 could significantly improve our rail services between Carlisle &Newcastle & the Coast line to Barrow but as that doesn't benefit London it will likely never happen.


In the last couple of years the Tyne Valley has seen frequency of service double. Couple more Sunday services each direction too. Rolling stock is also being upgraded.

The Cumbrian Coast has an improved service, and the Sunday service has seen significant improvements.

What else do you propose out of interest?


How about a train to Newcastle which is quicker than driving? The train goes at an average speed of 40mph which is ridiculous.

The “upgraded” rolling stock still looks about 20 years behind the space age stuff they have on similar lines down south.

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18 Feb 2020 19:11 #41 by Urban Designer
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The only ones that go on the Newcastle line are the ones who are banned from drinking in Carlisle.

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Yesterday 00:51 #42 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic HS2 Railway

Seekaye wrote:

CCU wrote:

Arragorn wrote: A fraction of the cost of HS2 could significantly improve our rail services between Carlisle &Newcastle & the Coast line to Barrow but as that doesn't benefit London it will likely never happen.


In the last couple of years the Tyne Valley has seen frequency of service double. Couple more Sunday services each direction too. Rolling stock is also being upgraded.

The Cumbrian Coast has an improved service, and the Sunday service has seen significant improvements.

What else do you propose out of interest?


How about a train to Newcastle which is quicker than driving? The train goes at an average speed of 40mph which is ridiculous.

The “upgraded” rolling stock still looks about 20 years behind the space age stuff they have on similar lines down south.


What the new franchise owners do about the imminent rollout of Northern Connect concept will be very interesting I can see that the very minimum will be a year's delay till they at least have enough drivers to man their trains on any given day.

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Yesterday 10:57 #43 by Arragorn
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Its obvious Trans Pennine have problems as well.
There's been a brand new 5 coach electric train parked in a siding at Kingmoor for weeks.
A lot of capital lying idle.

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Yesterday 11:27 #44 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic HS2 Railway

Arragorn wrote: Its obvious Trans Pennine have problems as well.
There's been a brand new 5 coach electric train parked in a siding at Kingmoor for weeks.
A lot of capital lying idle.


Or it’s just arrived in the UK and is awaiting it’s main line testing...

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Yesterday 11:35 #45 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic HS2 Railway

Arragorn wrote: Its obvious Trans Pennine have problems as well.
There's been a brand new 5 coach electric train parked in a siding at Kingmoor for weeks.
A lot of capital lying idle.


Transpennine's problems are in a lot of ways a lot worse than Northerns just on a smaller scale meaning a lot of the issues have been hidden by Northerns problems.

I have a mate who works for a specialised area of First Group here in Lancashire and he can tell some of the stuff that's gone on basically they offered to hand TPE back just after the election but were told it would only happen when the DfT were ready so unless they manage to get it sorted and get these trains on the tracks and earning money very soon they could well be going the same way as Northern.

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