'Safe Standing' Thread

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09 Apr 2018 21:00 #51 by paddockite
Replied by paddockite on topic 'Safe Standing' Thread
Appalling.

WBA are pushing for this for safety reasons. Fans standing in seated areas is deemed more unsafe, than that of safe standing. So why is this continually knocked back? It's not the 1980's.

I, like many other football fans, have stood in seated areas, at away fans following CUFC mainly. It is unsafe, doesn't stop us doing it, but it is very unsafe. I, and others, have gone flying other seats in front. Safe standing stops this. Yet they're happy keeping standing in seating areas deeming this safe.

Utterly ridiculous.

Tracey Crouch is the MP who has made the decision, I wouldn't recommend she views her Twitter anytime soon as it's not pleasant viewing.

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09 Apr 2018 21:14 #52 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic 'Safe Standing' Thread
Nobody wants the olden times of being penned in and tragedies but 'safe standing' says it all if properly researched and organised.

Don't pen people in and they will spill onto the pitch which was always the case, yet this method of sticking people in cages for our own safety was ridiculous and dangerous so if WBA want a safe paddock then let them have it.

If done properly then there is no need to destroy the traditional standing option at football by making everything seated

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09 Apr 2018 22:20 #53 by CCU
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paddockite wrote: Tracey Crouch is the MP who has made the decision, I wouldn't recommend she views her Twitter anytime soon as it's not pleasant viewing.


The decision has been made based on the rules that the top 2 Divisions can't have Terracing.

So it’s the rules that need campaigned for a change, then Clubs higher up can get some installed.

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10 Apr 2018 11:26 #54 by cufcmike
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I don't get the whole "3 year rule" when teams with terracing get promoted to the Championship. Why is terracing safe for those 3 years but unsafe after?

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10 Apr 2018 11:36 #55 by CCU
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cufcmike wrote: I don't get the whole "3 year rule" when teams with terracing get promoted to the Championship. Why is terracing safe for those 3 years but unsafe after?


The 3yr thing is merely to allow teams sufficient time to convert any Terracing to Seating to comply with the
Rule that Top 2 Divisions must be seated - Safety is sod all to do with it. They don’t expect Clubs to do it instantly so give them a timeframe in which it needs done. Barmy eh!

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10 Apr 2018 23:36 #56 by cufcmike
Replied by cufcmike on topic 'Safe Standing' Thread

CCU wrote:

cufcmike wrote: I don't get the whole "3 year rule" when teams with terracing get promoted to the Championship. Why is terracing safe for those 3 years but unsafe after?


The 3yr thing is merely to allow teams sufficient time to convert any Terracing to Seating to comply with the
Rule that Top 2 Divisions must be seated - Safety is sod all to do with it. They don’t expect Clubs to do it instantly so give them a timeframe in which it needs done. Barmy eh!


My point is though if terracing was as dangerous as they seem to think it is, it would be a matter of the deepest urgency? And if the rule is nothing to do with safety, then whats the point in it at all?
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11 Apr 2018 14:47 #57 by Flatcap
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cufcmike wrote:

CCU wrote:

cufcmike wrote: I don't get the whole "3 year rule" when teams with terracing get promoted to the Championship. Why is terracing safe for those 3 years but unsafe after?


The 3yr thing is merely to allow teams sufficient time to convert any Terracing to Seating to comply with the
Rule that Top 2 Divisions must be seated - Safety is sod all to do with it. They don’t expect Clubs to do it instantly so give them a timeframe in which it needs done. Barmy eh!


My point is though if terracing was as dangerous as they seem to think it is, it would be a matter of the deepest urgency? And if the rule is nothing to do with safety, then whats the point in it at all?


The real reason is that is easier to identify any member of the crowd misbehaving rather than a safety issue.
The main drawback of all seater stadiums is that it takes longer to evacuate if there is an emergency.
I remember the last time we were at Sunderland it took an age to get out of the stand.

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11 Apr 2018 16:14 #58 by Wukkie
Replied by Wukkie on topic 'Safe Standing' Thread
It takes an age to get out of the East Stand even when it's a third full. I'm sure around 75,000 at Old Trafford empties out quicker than 2500 at ours.

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11 Apr 2018 16:35 #59 by NORTHERNSOUL
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Flatcap wrote:

cufcmike wrote:

CCU wrote:

cufcmike wrote: I don't get the whole "3 year rule" when teams with terracing get promoted to the Championship. Why is terracing safe for those 3 years but unsafe after?


The 3yr thing is merely to allow teams sufficient time to convert any Terracing to Seating to comply with the
Rule that Top 2 Divisions must be seated - Safety is sod all to do with it. They don’t expect Clubs to do it instantly so give them a timeframe in which it needs done. Barmy eh!


My point is though if terracing was as dangerous as they seem to think it is, it would be a matter of the deepest urgency? And if the rule is nothing to do with safety, then whats the point in it at all?


The real reason is that is easier to identify any member of the crowd misbehaving rather than a safety issue.
The main drawback of all-seater stadiums is that it takes longer to evacuate if there is an emergency.
I remember the last time we were at Sunderland it took an age to get out of the stand.


Never understood how the fire authorities agree to building extensions on a stand in the manner that the one at Sunderland is How the hell do you get out if the fire starts around the stairwell or if they fill with acrid smoke

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11 Apr 2018 19:17 #60 by CCU
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Sign and share the Petition folks...


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12 Apr 2018 22:38 #61 by CCU
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That petition is at over 33k already...

The Football Safety Officers Association have had their say now:


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12 Apr 2018 22:47 #62 by franksidebottom
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Never understood why it’s safe to stand at Carlisle when it’s full, even if it is once in a blue moon, yet it’s not safe to stand at the likes of Wigan when they were premier league/championship when their ground was rarely full either!

“Yeah, I know of Barry. Bit of a fantasist” - John Courtenay 2003

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12 Apr 2018 22:51 #63 by franksidebottom
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One of the most ridiculous decisions was when Sunderland used to reduce away allocations of various well supported clubs like Man Utd and Leeds because of persistent standing. Away fans would just buy tickets in the home end. So instead of having 3,000 away fans stood up, they had 2,000 away fans stood up and a further 1,000 in the home end!

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16 Apr 2018 00:04 #64 by CCU
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Great article here:


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16 Apr 2018 00:18 #65 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic 'Safe Standing' Thread

CCU wrote: Great article here:



And the fact that the bloody sports minister is a woman it should be written in law that thats something that cant happen ever again.

I wonder how many league 2 games shes actually ever been to if we're having a sweep i.m going for less than one.

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16 Apr 2018 07:59 - 16 Apr 2018 08:06 #66 by nobbyblue
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NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

CCU wrote: Great article here:



And the fact that the bloody sports minister is a woman it should be written in law that thats something that cant happen ever again.

I wonder how many league 2 games shes actually ever been to if we're having a sweep i.m going for less than one.


To be fair to Tracey Crouch she is a qualified FA football coach and manages a youth girls' football team. She is a keen Tottenham Hotspur fan. Not the usual Tory lady cabinet member. :cheer:
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16 Apr 2018 12:21 #67 by ExiledJock
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It's like expecting our Defence Minister to have done two tours in Afghanistan.
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16 Apr 2018 13:25 #68 by NORTHERNSOUL
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ExiledJock wrote: It's like expecting our Defence Minister to have done two tours in Afghanistan.


Exactly they have a guy in the cabinet whos spent the majority of his working life in the Military do they make him defence minister? Do they [censored] they give him a portfolio he knows nothing about.

It's like Grayling and trains there a five-year-olds who know more about the British Rail Network than he does and its said in meetings he has a guy sat next to him to translate all the acronyms etc. You might not agree with Adonis but at least he knew about trains and how they and the network work.

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18 Apr 2018 19:52 #69 by CCU
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Petition at 64,900 currently, after reading this shite from the PL, the 100k mark should be easily broken...


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18 Apr 2018 21:39 #70 by Swintonblue
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I’ve always stood at Football, I’m a massive advocate of safe standing, but the rail seating thing is just nonsense to me, a really shit compromise. If you’re on proper terracing you can move about and stand in groups, if someone in from is taller find a better spot, move a step above or below,I find it hard to to get worked up about such a shit construct as the rail seating is. It’s as far away from proper terracing as all seater stadia are, it’s neither here nor there.
Either have proper terraces or don’t bother, the rail thing is a joke
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18 Apr 2018 21:43 #71 by NORTHERNSOUL
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Swintonblue wrote: I’ve always stood at Football, I’m a massive advocate of safe standing, but the rail seating thing is just nonsense to me, a really shit compromise. If you’re on proper terracing you can move about and stand in groups, if someone in from is taller find a better spot, move a step above or below,I find it hard to to get worked up about such a shit construct as the rail seating is. It’s as far away from proper terracing as all seater stadia are, it’s neither here nor there.
Either have proper terraces or don’t bother, the rail thing is a joke


Why any club with no chance of being in Europe [ Shrewsbury ] would even consider this is beyond me just do what Accy did rip the seats out then tell the FL what your plans are

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19 Apr 2018 23:12 #72 by CCU
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Shaun Harvey in sensible shock!


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25 Apr 2018 18:01 #73 by CCU
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Petition has passed 100k, and a fair few Clubs have backed it now...

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27 Apr 2018 10:00 #74 by CCU
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Sign the Petition, take the Survey...


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27 Apr 2018 13:01 #75 by Mortonblue
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Signed earlier

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02 May 2018 06:20 #76 by CCU
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Debate in Parliament confirmed.


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02 May 2018 07:51 - 02 May 2018 07:53 #77 by heilkmoon
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Good that the petition has achieved its aim. Haven't got a lot of faith in MPs to make a progressive decision though. Few have any natural empathy with football fans and are too ill-informed on the issues to get beyond a "standing = hooliganism" prejudice or "we must never have another Hillsborough" as an easy excuse for a do-gooding soundbite.

Indeed, the latter was cited in a very pompous manner by Manish Washbasin when the issue was raised on that crap highlights programme he used to present with Steve Claridge a couple of years ago. That's what we're up against.
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04 May 2018 12:37 #78 by CCU
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Whilst CUOSC backing it is good, it’d be nice if they asked their Members?


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19 May 2018 19:42 #79 by CCU
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05 Jun 2018 12:12 - 05 Jun 2018 12:14 #80 by CCU
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29 Aug 2018 15:34 #81 by CCU
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Seems the tide could be turning?


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29 Aug 2018 15:46 #82 by munchymagic
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And rightly so.

Those 'chicken fences' have a lot to answer for as if they were not there then there would have been no Hillsborough disaster and merely a delayed kick off as people flooded onto the pitch for safety reasons due to an overcrowded standing area - like what would happen if the Paddock/Warwick was full.

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29 Aug 2018 16:14 #83 by Zebby
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Been safe standing for years at Brunton Park...I would suggest if WBA or any other club want it they invite our board of directors to run their club for a few years and they too can have safe standing...

Be just and fear not

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29 Aug 2018 16:32 #84 by carwash
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I don't think the government is particularly opposed to it but they are very nervous about a reaction from the Hillsborough relatives should they be seen to be in favour of it. 96 lives disrespected etc. As long as the trend continues with fans pushing for it, supported by the League committees without any outcry from Merseyside then I suspect the government will 'cave in' and allow it on a trial basis. Stupid really how it is only politics which is stopping it at the moment.

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29 Aug 2018 16:37 #85 by CCU
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It will be 30yrs since the Hillsborough disaster next spring. Even some of the families affected have said they have no problem with ‘Safe Standing’. Stadia are light years ahead of what they were in the late 80’s (er, mostly!).

metro.co.uk/2018/06/28/safe-standing-hil...all-era-7665545/amp/

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29 Aug 2018 16:38 #86 by Mortonblue
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Shrewsbury have installed 550 safe standing "rail seats "which they hope to use in the "championship" next season.

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29 Aug 2018 16:46 #87 by Urban Designer
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I've had sky for a year and hardly ever watch the prem league. What is noticable is that the atmosphere at a lot of grounds is non existant. Man City & West Ham silent with a few claps when they score.

This safe standing isnt a true terrace. You can get twice as many on a terrace than number of seats in the same area.

The Kop has 12,390 seats which would double to 24,780.

It used to have a capacity of 30,000 in a smaller area.

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29 Aug 2018 16:50 #88 by munchymagic
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There should always be respect for those who died because no supporter should go to a game and lose their lives.

But if done in a sensible way that is not dangerous then it can add atmosphere to top flight games that was lost all those years ago and bring it back with more noise added to games like in Germany.

Not sure what the situation is in The Championship, think you are allowed standing if promoted into it and get an amount of time if you stay there to convert your ground to all seater but clubs that fall out of The Premier League are already all seater and cannot exploit this loophole.

They always want to 'test' these things lower level so The Championship would possibly be a better day out than most Premier league fixtures if standing is allowed with the atmosphere, the crowds would swell too for big games.

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29 Aug 2018 17:43 #89 by NORTHERNSOUL
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munchymagic wrote: There should always be respect for those who died because no supporter should go to a game and lose their lives.

But if done in a sensible way that is not dangerous then it can add atmosphere to top flight games that was lost all those years ago and bring it back with more noise added to games like in Germany.

Not sure what the situation is in The Championship, think you are allowed standing if promoted into it and get an amount of time if you stay there to convert your ground to all seater but clubs that fall out of The Premier League are already all seater and cannot exploit this loophole.

They always want to 'test' these things lower level so The Championship would possibly be a better day out than most Premier league fixtures if standing is allowed with the atmosphere, the crowds would swell too for big games.


Well one thing the FA could do tomorrow if they really are serious is cancel the regulation that if you've installed seats because you made 3 years in the championship you can't take your seats out even if you're now in the bottom two leagues Sunderland being a good example.

And then accept that safe standing doesn't have to mean rail seats the only places they should be needed is at any club that thinks it has a chance of playing in Europe. The standing arrangements at both Exeter and Brunton park were put in place well post-Hillsborough so copies of them should be acceptable at anywhere that doesn't need rail seats to meet the European rules thats why the installation at Shrewsbury is plain stupid they could have barriered the whole end for less than what they paid out for 500 rail seats.

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29 Aug 2018 18:39 #90 by Mr Quint
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Most fans I know want to stand!
The disaster at Hillsbrough happened due to many factors. The ‘standing’ factor was not the sole reason per say. Like any bad design, human error and poor desicion making lead to disaster.
To blame standing is like blaming cars for a motorway crash.
My suspicion was that on review seating is seen as an informal means of crowd control. It was pre-hillsbrough notes to be option to stop hoolighanism.

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29 Aug 2018 19:51 #91 by NORTHERNSOUL
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Mr Quint wrote: Most fans I know want to stand!
The disaster at Hillsbrough happened due to many factors. The ‘standing’ factor was not the sole reason per say. Like any bad design, human error and poor desicion making lead to disaster.
To blame standing is like blaming cars for a motorway crash.
My suspicion was that on review seating is seen as an informal means of crowd control. It was pre-hillsbrough notes to be option to stop hoolighanism.


If you read the Taylor report and the subsequent Hillsborough enquiry report its very clear that the first thing that had to be done immediately was the removal of the fences. The installation of seats was just an option that would help negate the likelihood of pitch invasions which went on to gain legs of its own and went on to become the norm rather than the exception and by the time the legislation was enacted [ safety of sports grounds act ] it was seen as the solution.

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29 Aug 2018 20:48 #92 by nobbyblue
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Canna see the point of safe standing to be honest. Why not just have normal terracing with a low/safe capacity..

Sounds like a trendy bandwagon to jump on to me.

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29 Aug 2018 21:03 #93 by bruntonpete
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'Standing' was not the problem at Hillsborough in any way shape or form. In fact, had you crammed 5 times as many folk as should be in a seated area, the same problem could have occurred. Seats can also slow people's movements down when trying to escape a problem area - I.e bradford fire.
So long as the capacity is controlled and the correct amount are in that area, no problem should occur. Blame Hillsborough disaster on many factors but standing isn't one of them.
Making things all seater was about money. In many ways, it forced a total revamp of attitudes and policy which was needed. Such a shame it cost so many lives before those at the top couldn't ignore fans needs any more.
Good, safe terracing could have been there from the top flight to the bottom but they make more money from seated spectators so that was never a feasible option unless they are saying lives of lower league clubs are worth less than premier league ones. Which they probably are come to think about it.
NS is right. Shrewsbury (and Celtic) have installed rail seating at a high cost when the old fashioned barriers would have been just as safe and a lot more practical. Much better atmosphere in them too.
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29 Aug 2018 21:33 #94 by carwash
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True bruntonpete but as the woman in CCU's link said this is a highly emotive issue for the Hillsborough survivors even though some of them now favour safe standing. I think you are going to need people like Andy Burnham leading the call for standing to be reintroduced for the Tories to overcome their fear of a hostile reaction. Liverpool still hasn't forgiven Boris for some off the cuff remark which offended the city so it's understandable why they're being ultra-cautious.

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29 Aug 2018 21:54 #95 by bruntonpete
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If you compare the terraces of the day to, say, those at st Helens new ground there is no comparison. From death trap cages to safe standing areas with good views and good facilities.
They still tarnish the word terracing to scare the public.
It is understandable that the Liverpool families will be watching the story unfold with emotions high but they aren't stupid. They know what caused the tragedy and it wasn't because their friends and family were stood up.
A lot of political spin here. I think the issue is still money for the decision makers but for us fans it should be about maintaining standards to ensure that situation cannot ever happen again. People are too savvy now. They wouldn't tolerate standing behind a barbed wire fence, stood in piss puddles, being threatened by police and stewards with a view that makes 'restricted' seem almost posh.
Other than losing a small amount of admission cash, there is no reason why proper standing terraces can't return - for every club, regardless of league position.
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28 Jan 2020 11:57 - 28 Jan 2020 12:00 #96 by CCU
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Standing possibly as early as next Season:


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28 Jan 2020 13:03 #97 by NORTHERNSOUL
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CCU wrote: Standing possibly as early as next Season:


Don't say you weren't all told as recently as the weekend

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03 Feb 2020 12:51 #98 by aberdeenblue28
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Hi i'm doing some research on safe standing. If you could fill out this survey that would be great. Many thanks.

www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/5RF9GWL

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03 Feb 2020 16:16 #99 by Urban Designer
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done

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03 Feb 2020 16:32 #100 by 09sider
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Done.

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