Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

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23 Jan 2018 14:59 #51 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Durham Tees has had a fall from grace in recent years, always thought it was too near Newc/Leeds-Brad myself.

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23 Jan 2018 17:15 #52 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

carwash wrote: NS, I think the plan is to limit the losses on the passenger side rather than make money out of the scheduled flights. They have had a nice £4.95 million 'investment' from the Cumbria Local Enterprise Partnership and the plan all along was to use the airport mainly for cargo flights.

Eastern Airlines have lost most of their North Sea oil business after the collapse in the oil price so last year they entered into a franchise arrangement with Flybe who operate from Southend and who Stobart Air also operate flights for. Big question is the likely demand which Stobarts themselves probably don't know. Eastern have crew bases at Newcastle and Durham Tees Valley so it might make sense to start small with 29 seater planes. I am not sure Stobart have any spare planes at the moment so they may have to lease a couple if they end up operating the route. Interesting because without government subsidies these new routes are a licence to lose money.


As i understand it Stobbarts have access to planes owned by Aer Lingus who i believe also have access to unused slots from Belfast and Dublin which i imagine are the ones they.ll be using and the Dublin ones could prove popular because i believe if you fly from there to the USA you can do your immigration checks etc at the Irish end.

" if the old git stepped out in front of my car i wouldnt be looking for the brakes thats for sure "

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23 Jan 2018 17:17 #53 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

CCU wrote: Durham Tees has had a fall from grace in recent years, always thought it was too near Newc/Leeds-Brad myself.


Its another Blackpool just waiting to happen

" if the old git stepped out in front of my car i wouldnt be looking for the brakes thats for sure "

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23 Jan 2018 17:20 - 23 Jan 2018 17:22 #54 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

CCU wrote: Durham Tees has had a fall from grace in recent years, always thought it was too near Newc/Leeds-Brad myself.


Its another Blackpool just waiting to happen


They’re wanting to shut the Railway Station there now. In 16/17 it had a grand total of 30 entries/exits, down from 98 the year before. Think one year it was as low as 8! Think there’s one service a week stops now, on the one remaining open platform! Any customers are usually oddbods who are trying to go to all Stations in the UK.

It’s an utterly useless Station with poor connection to the Airport, and the disused platform is apparently in a bad state. One case where closure is justified!

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!
Last edit: 23 Jan 2018 17:22 by CCU.

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23 Jan 2018 22:25 #55 by pie
Replied by pie on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

carwash wrote: NS, I think the plan is to limit the losses on the passenger side rather than make money out of the scheduled flights. They have had a nice £4.95 million 'investment' from the Cumbria Local Enterprise Partnership and the plan all along was to use the airport mainly for cargo flights.

Eastern Airlines have lost most of their North Sea oil business after the collapse in the oil price so last year they entered into a franchise arrangement with Flybe who operate from Southend and who Stobart Air also operate flights for. Big question is the likely demand which Stobarts themselves probably don't know. Eastern have crew bases at Newcastle and Durham Tees Valley so it might make sense to start small with 29 seater planes. I am not sure Stobart have any spare planes at the moment so they may have to lease a couple if they end up operating the route. Interesting because without government subsidies these new routes are a licence to lose money.


As i understand it Stobbarts have access to planes owned by Aer Lingus who i believe also have access to unused slots from Belfast and Dublin which i imagine are the ones they.ll be using and the Dublin ones could prove popular because i believe if you fly from there to the USA you can do your immigration checks etc at the Irish end.


You're right Barry, at Dublin (and Shannon) you pre-clear US immigration in Ireland and get treated like a domestic flight when you land. Same approach for us here - saves a load of time on arrival. Surprised nowhere in the UK is doing the same thing but sure there'll be a good reason for it.

Hope those slots at Dublin are nowhere near the Ryanair Pier - feels like you've landed in Belfast and have to walk to Dublin by the time you've made it to the baggage carousels.

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23 Jan 2018 23:05 #56 by High Street
Replied by High Street on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

CCU wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

CCU wrote: Durham Tees has had a fall from grace in recent years, always thought it was too near Newc/Leeds-Brad myself.


Its another Blackpool just waiting to happen


They’re wanting to shut the Railway Station there now. In 16/17 it had a grand total of 30 entries/exits, down from 98 the year before. Think one year it was as low as 8! Think there’s one service a week stops now, on the one remaining open platform! Any customers are usually oddbods who are trying to go to all Stations in the UK.

It’s an utterly useless Station with poor connection to the Airport, and the disused platform is apparently in a bad state. One case where closure is justified!


It’s easier to stop one train a week than go through the closure process. Parliamentary trains.

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24 Jan 2018 13:43 #57 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

pie wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

carwash wrote: NS, I think the plan is to limit the losses on the passenger side rather than make money out of the scheduled flights. They have had a nice £4.95 million 'investment' from the Cumbria Local Enterprise Partnership and the plan all along was to use the airport mainly for cargo flights.

Eastern Airlines have lost most of their North Sea oil business after the collapse in the oil price so last year they entered into a franchise arrangement with Flybe who operate from Southend and who Stobart Air also operate flights for. Big question is the likely demand which Stobarts themselves probably don't know. Eastern have crew bases at Newcastle and Durham Tees Valley so it might make sense to start small with 29 seater planes. I am not sure Stobart have any spare planes at the moment so they may have to lease a couple if they end up operating the route. Interesting because without government subsidies these new routes are a licence to lose money.


As i understand it Stobbarts have access to planes owned by Aer Lingus who i believe also have access to unused slots from Belfast and Dublin which i imagine are the ones they.ll be using and the Dublin ones could prove popular because i believe if you fly from there to the USA you can do your immigration checks etc at the Irish end.


You're right Barry, at Dublin (and Shannon) you pre-clear US immigration in Ireland and get treated like a domestic flight when you land. Same approach for us here - saves a load of time on arrival. Surprised nowhere in the UK is doing the same thing but sure there'll be a good reason for it.

Hope those slots at Dublin are nowhere near the Ryanair Pier - feels like you've landed in Belfast and have to walk to Dublin by the time you've made it to the baggage carousels.


Aye youre right about that pier i remember that from when it first opened when i was going over 3 or 4 times a year we always used to try to fly with Aer Fungus they had the premium gates

" if the old git stepped out in front of my car i wouldnt be looking for the brakes thats for sure "

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24 Jan 2018 18:23 #58 by Oldbolt
Replied by Oldbolt on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Can people really not see this for what it is?
Stobart group get £5m grant to resurface the runway on the premise it will be used for passenger flights to encourage economic growth for the county
Flights are withdrawn after a relatively short space of time because they are not economically viable
Stobart Group now has an upgraded runway upon which it can now land its freight services and expand their freight operation on the airport
They come up smelling of roses as its not their fault not enough people used the services regularly

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24 Jan 2018 18:31 #59 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Said exactly the same to my dad yesterday.

There's only one way of life and that's your own!!!

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20 Feb 2018 09:42 #60 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Assuming this was always part of the plan?


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20 Feb 2018 12:59 #61 by cousinscotty
Replied by cousinscotty on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

CCU wrote: Assuming this was always part of the plan?


Would be helpful if they built a rail link to the airport as public transport out there is non-existent.

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20 Feb 2018 13:12 #62 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

cousinscotty wrote:

CCU wrote: Assuming this was always part of the plan?


Would be helpful if they built a rail link to the airport as public transport out there is non-existent.


Rail Link is highly unlikely at present, costs several £m a mile for the most basic layouts. Simply wouldn’t pay for itself any time in the future.

It’s a shame it’s not more round towards Longtown, as you could argue the case for any possible reopening of the Southern End of the Waverley Line to connect with the Airport, but sadly it’s too much of a spur outwards in its current location.

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20 Feb 2018 13:23 - 20 Feb 2018 13:26 #63 by Cayambe
Replied by Cayambe on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

CCU wrote:

cousinscotty wrote:

CCU wrote: Assuming this was always part of the plan?


Would be helpful if they built a rail link to the airport as public transport out there is non-existent.


Rail Link is highly unlikely at present, costs several £m a mile for the most basic layouts. Simply wouldn’t pay for itself any time in the future.

It’s a shame it’s not more round towards Longtown, as you could argue the case for any possible reopening of the Southern End of the Waverley Line to connect with the Airport, but sadly it’s too much of a spur outwards in its current location.


It would take quite a cost benefit analysis to justify a train link to an airport with potentially 300 passengers a day. And what would you like your rate of return to be Mr Tinkler.

Besides if one lives outside Carlisle it is probably just as quick to go by road than travel into the centre.
Last edit: 20 Feb 2018 13:26 by Cayambe.

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20 Feb 2018 16:54 #64 by carwash
Replied by carwash on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
There's still been no update on which airline will actually operate the flights. My hunch is that it will be Eastern Airways on behalf of Flybe using a couple of their 29-seater Jetstream 41s but they want to manage the announcement to avoid any negative publicity. Incoming passengers are likely to need car rental and a taxi service more than public transport. Outgoing passengers will probably be offered free or cheap car parking. The airport will need to attract customers from all directions not just those travelling from the centre of Carlisle so I reckon public transport is a luxury they won't bother with in the early days.

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20 Feb 2018 17:03 #65 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
This is why I was initially against passenger flights to Carlisle, think of the noise and air pollution that we did not have before for very little benefit - and just think that if it did not work with the passenger flights then we could possibly get noise and air pollution at all times of the day and night for cargo flights with no benefit to any of us except revenue for Stobarts, the job situation will be of minimum gain in jobs as they are just transferring people.

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20 Feb 2018 18:32 #66 by carwash
Replied by carwash on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
I've been thinking through how the flight schedules could work. Initially they promised two return flights a day to London Southend, Belfast and Dublin. However by using just one plane and having access to a spare at Newcastle or Durham Tees Valley they would be better off with just a single flight daily to Belfast and Dublin. First flight out of Carlisle at 6.00 am arriving Southend at 7.30. Return flight leaves at 8.00 arrives Carlisle at 9.30. Flight to Dublin leaves 10.00 arrives 11.30. Return flight leaves 12.00 arrives 13.30. Flight to Belfast leaves 14.00 arrives 15.15. Return flight leaves 15.45 arrives 17.00. Flight to Southend leaves 18.00 arrives 19.30. Return flight leaves 20.00 arrives Carlisle at 21.30.

Say with 20 passengers per flight that would be 800 passengers a week Monday to Friday. With a single flight per route on Saturdays and Sundays you could add a further 240 passengers per week. 1040 passengers x 52 weeks and you get the predicted 50,000 or so passengers a year.

One small plane based at Carlisle doesn't sound impressive but it would be enough to carry the target 50,000 passengers in the first year.

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20 Feb 2018 18:53 #67 by thesilentone
Replied by thesilentone on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Stobart Air

Formerly known as Aer Arann, Stobart Air operates a fleet of 19 regional aircraft on behalf of Flybe and Aer Lingus Regional serving destinations across the UK, Ireland and Europe from hubs at Cork, Dublin, the Isle of Man and London Southend Airport.

Stobart Aviation

Stobart Group owns and operates London Southend Airport and Carlisle Lake District Airport. Focusing on passenger growth, the division aims to:

Capitalise on demand for regional airport capacity, especially in the South East Promote London Southend Airport as Europe's fastest-growing airport and the highest ranked in the UK by Which? for customer satisfaction Secure new airline operators and provide untapped routes, bringing passengers to London and the South East from across the UK and Europe.

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20 Feb 2018 19:05 #68 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
The key issue that they will be judged from will be the ease and transfer time from Southend to London.

I could be wrong but as you base your statistics on planes being more full then I would guess that this will fall short.

You could possibly draw in a lot of the Scottish customers but again it could be 1000 people at peak times wanting 29 tickets and flights called off because nobody wants to travel in the first few weeks of January.

Be interesting to see how it pans out.

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20 Feb 2018 20:42 #69 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Prob as I see it is you can be at Euston in under 3.5 hours for less than £50 depending on travel times and when you buy tickets etc. The plane has a bit to go to beat that at the same value. As I said previous I’d maybe do it for the novelty factor even though a flight isn’t really a novelty nowadays.

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20 Feb 2018 21:16 #70 by ExiledJock
Replied by ExiledJock on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
I can see some demand for the Dublin flights. Less convinced by the London offer.

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20 Feb 2018 21:24 #71 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

ExiledJock wrote: I can see some demand for the Dublin flights. Less convinced by the London offer.


Celtic fans going home?

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20 Feb 2018 21:35 #72 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

munchymagic wrote:

ExiledJock wrote: I can see some demand for the Dublin flights. Less convinced by the London offer.


Celtic fans going home?


More likely Clint Hill Belfast loyal going to Belfast ;)

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21 Feb 2018 09:25 #73 by thesilentone
Replied by thesilentone on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
A short flight to Dublin will open up the NW and SW Scotland to World destinations.

Manchester is pretty good, but for some flights we have to go to London, in addition parking at Carlisle and flying to Dublin would be allot better than driving to Manchester Airport (and parking)

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21 Feb 2018 17:16 #74 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Whats wrong with Glasgow and Edinburgh?

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21 Feb 2018 17:39 #75 by Oldbolt
Replied by Oldbolt on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
I'll give it 6 months max
After which point your only option to fly to Dublin will be on a freight flight - the real objective of the entire project all along

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21 Feb 2018 19:04 #76 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

Oldbolt wrote: I'll give it 6 months max
After which point your only option to fly to Dublin will be on a freight flight - the real objective of the entire project all along


I can fully understand why you might think that but if you look at it if they do that the start-up grant is repayable [ not the enterprise one for the airport facilities ] so theres 5 million they could use to carry on subsidising it with.

And take no notice of people telling you how little you can get a train ticket for well try looking at a first class ticket on the first train in the morning i believe its in the region of 400 quid so i.d say if they charged 150 it would be petty well packed every day and then theres the Dublin flights with access to the USA flights and customs clearance as well as the seamless transfer to flights to just about everywhere else.

Stobart Air run airports thats what they do in spite of what the other arms of the company do.

" if the old git stepped out in front of my car i wouldnt be looking for the brakes thats for sure "

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21 Feb 2018 19:33 - 21 Feb 2018 19:37 #77 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Prob with that argument Barry is we dont know what time the flights are gonna be. If they are gonna be for business travellers setting off at 6/7am then they may be better than trying to book a first class seat. Just looked now and this time next month a first class single on the first train is £195 and gets you into Euston at 09.07. A 6am flight would get you into the centre before that if you did need to get there early. However if it was say a lunchtime flight looking at casual travellers then the train would win.

Edit to add you can get there for £23 setting off at 1pm. No brainer if your a casual traveller

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Last edit: 21 Feb 2018 19:37 by Dancingbear.

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21 Feb 2018 22:12 - 21 Feb 2018 22:14 #78 by Oldbolt
Replied by Oldbolt on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Oldbolt wrote: I'll give it 6 months max
After which point your only option to fly to Dublin will be on a freight flight - the real objective of the entire project all along


I can fully understand why you might think that but if you look at it if they do that the start-up grant is repayable [ not the enterprise one for the airport facilities ] so theres 5 million they could use to carry on subsidising it with.

And take no notice of people telling you how little you can get a train ticket for well try looking at a first class ticket on the first train in the morning i believe its in the region of 400 quid so i.d say if they charged 150 it would be petty well packed every day and then theres the Dublin flights with access to the USA flights and customs clearance as well as the seamless transfer to flights to just about everywhere else.

Stobart Air run airports thats what they do in spite of what the other arms of the company do.





The start-up grant is not repayable if it can be demonstrated that all efforts have been explored to make the venture viable

And you're well wide of the mark with your comparison with the trains
2 hour min check in, 70 min flight time, 55 min train ride to Liverpool St, - plus 20 min tube to central London = total minimum travel time of 4 hrs 25 mins - over an hour longer than Virgin train, which goes direct, without all of the hassle
No way would it be packed every day
Like I've said in this [and other] threads, they have no intention of maintaining passenger flights in the medium or long term. Their end game is an expanded haulage centre, with the option for air freight, from a facility paid for almost entirely from grants / external funding. All talk of passenger services is just that - talk. Just to oil the wheels
Last edit: 21 Feb 2018 22:14 by Oldbolt. Reason: mistake

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21 Feb 2018 22:41 - 21 Feb 2018 22:42 #79 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
There’ll be no 2hr Minimum Check-In for internal flights?

From the FlyBe Website (Who are Fav’s to be involved):

Check-in times:

Domestic flights

Travelling with Hold luggage
Airport Check-in desks open 2 hours until 30 minutes before scheduled departure time (until 60 minutes for departures from Campbeltown and London Heathrow).

Cabin bags only
Airport Check-in desks open 2 hours until 20 minutes before scheduled time of departure (until 30 minutes for all Flybe flights operated by Blue Islands and until 45 minutes from London Heathrow).


Given the size of the Airport and low number of flights, security won’t take long either!

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!
Last edit: 21 Feb 2018 22:42 by CCU.

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21 Feb 2018 23:06 #80 by pie
Replied by pie on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

CCU wrote: There’ll be no 2hr Minimum Check-In for internal flights?

From the FlyBe Website (Who are Fav’s to be involved):

Check-in times:

Domestic flights

Travelling with Hold luggage
Airport Check-in desks open 2 hours until 30 minutes before scheduled departure time (until 60 minutes for departures from Campbeltown and London Heathrow).

Cabin bags only
Airport Check-in desks open 2 hours until 20 minutes before scheduled time of departure (until 30 minutes for all Flybe flights operated by Blue Islands and until 45 minutes from London Heathrow).


Given the size of the Airport and low number of flights, security won’t take long either!


Anybody who gets to the airport for a domestic flight 2 hours before takeoff is a bit behind the times.

Nearest airport here recommends 30-45 mins before and that’s only necessary if you fancy a free drink before you fly.
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22 Feb 2018 12:22 #81 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

pie wrote:

CCU wrote: There’ll be no 2hr Minimum Check-In for internal flights?

From the FlyBe Website (Who are Fav’s to be involved):

Check-in times:

Domestic flights

Travelling with Hold luggage
Airport Check-in desks open 2 hours until 30 minutes before scheduled departure time (until 60 minutes for departures from Campbeltown and London Heathrow).

Cabin bags only
Airport Check-in desks open 2 hours until 20 minutes before scheduled time of departure (until 30 minutes for all Flybe flights operated by Blue Islands and until 45 minutes from London Heathrow).


Given the size of the Airport and low number of flights, security won’t take long either!


Anybody who gets to the airport for a domestic flight 2 hours before takeoff is a bit behind the times.

Nearest airport here recommends 30-45 mins before and that’s only necessary if you fancy a free drink before you fly.


Theres no real such thing as check in. At Blackpool it used to work like this You arrive at the desk you show your tickets and hand over your bags [if you have more than the cabin allowance ] The girl stays on that desk till the plane is outside and ready to board she then leaves [ putting up a sign that says if this desk is unmanned please call ext 101 ] that desk and goes to open the doors that let you out onto the tarmac to board the plane she ticks you off her list [ the 101 ext phone is right behind her ] then if there are people missing she goes back to the check in desk to make sure theyre not waiting there and if not puts out a tannoy call for you.

Just before the airport closed and due to trying to find a park in the streets opposite to avoid the 10 quid charge i arrived at the desk less than 10 mins before departure time and still made the flight and iv.e no reason to think it will be any different at Carlisle so long as the only " foreign " destination is Dublin .

Just a shame Impact Travel arent still around as i bet theyd of had half a dozen charters each week in the summer.

" if the old git stepped out in front of my car i wouldnt be looking for the brakes thats for sure "

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22 Feb 2018 12:41 - 22 Feb 2018 12:42 #82 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

Oldbolt wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Oldbolt wrote: I'll give it 6 months max
After which point your only option to fly to Dublin will be on a freight flight - the real objective of the entire project all along


I can fully understand why you might think that but if you look at it if they do that the start-up grant is repayable [ not the enterprise one for the airport facilities ] so theres 5 million they could use to carry on subsidising it with.

And take no notice of people telling you how little you can get a train ticket for well try looking at a first class ticket on the first train in the morning i believe its in the region of 400 quid so i.d say if they charged 150 it would be petty well packed every day and then theres the Dublin flights with access to the USA flights and customs clearance as well as the seamless transfer to flights to just about everywhere else.

Stobart Air run airports thats what they do in spite of what the other arms of the company do.





The start-up grant is not repayable if it can be demonstrated that all efforts have been explored to make the venture viable

And you're well wide of the mark with your comparison with the trains
2 hour min check in, 70 min flight time, 55 min train ride to Liverpool St, - plus 20 min tube to central London = total minimum travel time of 4 hrs 25 mins - over an hour longer than Virgin train, which goes direct, without all of the hassle
No way would it be packed every day
Like I've said in this [and other] threads, they have no intention of maintaining passenger flights in the medium or long term. Their end game is an expanded haulage centre, with the option for air freight, from a facility paid for almost entirely from grants / external funding. All talk of passenger services is just that - talk. Just to oil the wheels


So you think theyd just let them off with 5 million quid do you just because they say " well we tried offering a few discounts "

If you see my post on the other thread you could check in say 15 mins before your flight [ don't forget there'll be no shops or anything if you arrive 2 hours early all you do is sit in the airside waiting room for 2 hours ]

At Blackpool you could show up 15 mins before departure and it would take you about the same to walk into the arrivals at Stanstead when you got there and if i remember right the flight took about 25 minutes

So lets say Carlisle to Southend would be double that and as i understand it you dont go to Liverpool St you get off and change to the tube earlier at a station with an easier connection and that will get even easier when crossrail opens but lets say an hour so i make that a total of 2hours 20 mins so an hour less than Virgin in reality.

And as you say single fare 195 so two of them just short of 400 quid like i said.

" if the old git stepped out in front of my car i wouldnt be looking for the brakes thats for sure "
Last edit: 22 Feb 2018 12:42 by NORTHERNSOUL.

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22 Feb 2018 12:52 #83 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

Dancingbear wrote: Prob with that argument Barry is we dont know what time the flights are gonna be. If they are gonna be for business travellers setting off at 6/7am then they may be better than trying to book a first class seat. Just looked now and this time next month a first class single on the first train is £195 and gets you into Euston at 09.07. A 6am flight would get you into the centre before that if you did need to get there early. However if it was say a lunchtime flight looking at casual travellers then the train would win.

Edit to add you can get there for £23 setting off at 1pm. No brainer if your a casual traveller


Well i think its pretty clear to make it work the first flight would have to have you in Central London by say 8.30am at the earliest to allow them to charge a premium on that flight and to have the aircraft back in Carlisle in time to be able to fit in the Belfast and Dublin flights and to get people from London up here in time for at least three quarters of a day then another London flight around teatime to cater for those who have been up North for the day returning to London and for those from up here who prefer to get down and book into a hotel down there. And i.d say if they could do all that 6 days a week with one plane and two crews it would be a pretty lean operation

" if the old git stepped out in front of my car i wouldnt be looking for the brakes thats for sure "

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22 Feb 2018 14:06 #84 by Oldbolt
Replied by Oldbolt on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Oldbolt wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Oldbolt wrote: I'll give it 6 months max
After which point your only option to fly to Dublin will be on a freight flight - the real objective of the entire project all along


I can fully understand why you might think that but if you look at it if they do that the start-up grant is repayable [ not the enterprise one for the airport facilities ] so theres 5 million they could use to carry on subsidising it with.

And take no notice of people telling you how little you can get a train ticket for well try looking at a first class ticket on the first train in the morning i believe its in the region of 400 quid so i.d say if they charged 150 it would be petty well packed every day and then theres the Dublin flights with access to the USA flights and customs clearance as well as the seamless transfer to flights to just about everywhere else.

Stobart Air run airports thats what they do in spite of what the other arms of the company do.





The start-up grant is not repayable if it can be demonstrated that all efforts have been explored to make the venture viable

And you're well wide of the mark with your comparison with the trains
2 hour min check in, 70 min flight time, 55 min train ride to Liverpool St, - plus 20 min tube to central London = total minimum travel time of 4 hrs 25 mins - over an hour longer than Virgin train, which goes direct, without all of the hassle
No way would it be packed every day
Like I've said in this [and other] threads, they have no intention of maintaining passenger flights in the medium or long term. Their end game is an expanded haulage centre, with the option for air freight, from a facility paid for almost entirely from grants / external funding. All talk of passenger services is just that - talk. Just to oil the wheels


So you think theyd just let them off with 5 million quid do you just because they say " well we tried offering a few discounts "

If you see my post on the other thread you could check in say 15 mins before your flight [ don't forget there'll be no shops or anything if you arrive 2 hours early all you do is sit in the airside waiting room for 2 hours ]

At Blackpool you could show up 15 mins before departure and it would take you about the same to walk into the arrivals at Stanstead when you got there and if i remember right the flight took about 25 minutes

So lets say Carlisle to Southend would be double that and as i understand it you dont go to Liverpool St you get off and change to the tube earlier at a station with an easier connection and that will get even easier when crossrail opens but lets say an hour so i make that a total of 2hours 20 mins so an hour less than Virgin in reality.

And as you say single fare 195 so two of them just short of 400 quid like i said.


You don't remember correctly. Unless you were chartering a Lear Jet
Manchester to London is over an hour flight time,
Carlisle to Southend will be approx. 1hr 15 mins. The journey time to Liverpool St is 55 mins. And then tube into central London 20 mins
Even if all three of those journeys ran perfectly concurrently [which they wont], this is total journey time of 2.5 hours. By the time you allow for the check-in, waiting around for train from Southend, tube from Liverpool St - it will be neither as fast or convenient then the Virgin Train service

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22 Feb 2018 17:03 #85 by thesilentone
Replied by thesilentone on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Check in on line, no hold luggage, as long as the plane doors aren't closed, your on..........

Parking at Carlisle Airport to the terminal 2 x mins, max check in 30 mins, flight to Southend 45 mins max. Southend to Central London by train 53 mins.

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22 Feb 2018 17:12 #86 by carwash
Replied by carwash on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
I think the Newcastle-Cardiff route operated by Eastern Airways on behalf of Flybe is a useful template for the likely Carlisle-Southend service. The published flight time is 1 hour 20/30 minutes and the next week fare is about £370 return. It is totally geared to the business traveller.

Some people will prefer the train, some will prefer driving to the airport, some will prefer driving the entire journey. Quite often it is down to where you want to be at both ends of the journey and if the timings suit. For me the 5 1/2 hour drive would win almost every time but I couldn't do a return trip the same day except by plane - I'm not that regular a long distance train passenger.

There's definitely some demand for a far north of England service to London but how much exactly will be puzzling Stobarts as much as anyone and they are going to have to subsidise it.

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22 Feb 2018 17:42 #87 by carwash
Replied by carwash on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Stobarts have announced today that they are considering bidding for Flybe. This has probably been making the discussions regarding the operation of the services out of Carlisle a bit awkward. :D

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22 Feb 2018 18:08 #88 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

carwash wrote: Stobarts have announced today that they are considering bidding for Flybe. This has probably been making the discussions regarding the operation of the services out of Carlisle a bit awkward. :D


Just saw that on the Reuters Twitter...


Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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22 Feb 2018 18:13 #89 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Stobarts haven't made any real screw ups regarding large contracts like the Tesco contract and the train haulage so them controlling the airport and the planes would make sense really as they would have full control to make it more efficient.

It would be a waste of time having a well run airport if the planes were never running on time.

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22 Feb 2018 18:50 #90 by carwash
Replied by carwash on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
I get the impression Stobarts' frustration with Flybe has reached breaking point. Flybe operate more UK domestic flights than anyone else. Stobarts own a shiny newish airport in Southend that Flybe are not using as much as Stobarts would like. Flybe are making Stobarts look as useless as CUFC's board of directors in terms of sticking to the announcement schedule for the Carlisle flights.

Manchester Airports Group who own London Stansted would love nothing better than to see Southend airport remain under-utilised to the point it becomes a white elephant. Stobarts are used to getting their own way but the aviation industry doesn't work like that. Stobarts are having to come to terms with the fact they are too small and need more leverage to be taken seriously. Controlling most of the UK's domestic flights would be a big help but personally I can't see the Competition and Markets Authority allowing it especially once my mates at Stansted start campaigning to block Stobarts buying Flybe.

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22 Feb 2018 21:11 - 22 Feb 2018 21:14 #91 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

Oldbolt wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Oldbolt wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Oldbolt wrote: I'll give it 6 months max
After which point your only option to fly to Dublin will be on a freight flight - the real objective of the entire project all along


I can fully understand why you might think that but if you look at it if they do that the start-up grant is repayable [ not the enterprise one for the airport facilities ] so theres 5 million they could use to carry on subsidising it with.

And take no notice of people telling you how little you can get a train ticket for well try looking at a first class ticket on the first train in the morning i believe its in the region of 400 quid so i.d say if they charged 150 it would be petty well packed every day and then theres the Dublin flights with access to the USA flights and customs clearance as well as the seamless transfer to flights to just about everywhere else.

Stobart Air run airports thats what they do in spite of what the other arms of the company do.





The start-up grant is not repayable if it can be demonstrated that all efforts have been explored to make the venture viable

And you're well wide of the mark with your comparison with the trains
2 hour min check in, 70 min flight time, 55 min train ride to Liverpool St, - plus 20 min tube to central London = total minimum travel time of 4 hrs 25 mins - over an hour longer than Virgin train, which goes direct, without all of the hassle
No way would it be packed every day
Like I've said in this [and other] threads, they have no intention of maintaining passenger flights in the medium or long term. Their end game is an expanded haulage centre, with the option for air freight, from a facility paid for almost entirely from grants / external funding. All talk of passenger services is just that - talk. Just to oil the wheels


So you think theyd just let them off with 5 million quid do you just because they say " well we tried offering a few discounts "

If you see my post on the other thread you could check in say 15 mins before your flight [ don't forget there'll be no shops or anything if you arrive 2 hours early all you do is sit in the airside waiting room for 2 hours ]

At Blackpool you could show up 15 mins before departure and it would take you about the same to walk into the arrivals at Stanstead when you got there and if i remember right the flight took about 25 minutes

So lets say Carlisle to Southend would be double that and as i understand it you dont go to Liverpool St you get off and change to the tube earlier at a station with an easier connection and that will get even easier when crossrail opens but lets say an hour so i make that a total of 2hours 20 mins so an hour less than Virgin in reality.

And as you say single fare 195 so two of them just short of 400 quid like i said.


You don't remember correctly. Unless you were chartering a Lear Jet
Manchester to London is over an hour flight time,
Carlisle to Southend will be approx. 1hr 15 mins. The journey time to Liverpool St is 55 mins. And then tube into central London 20 mins
Even if all three of those journeys ran perfectly concurrently [which they wont], this is total journey time of 2.5 hours. By the time you allow for the check-in, waiting around for train from Southend, tube from Liverpool St - it will be neither as fast or convenient then the Virgin Train service


I can assure you the flight from Blackpool to Stanstead took nowhere near as long as that I.ve just asked someone i know who used it regularly and he reckons 40 mins absolute tops

Your quoting international airports there and believe me getting a plane at Blackpool [and how i assume it will be at Carlisle ] was much more like getting on a bus than getting an international flight luckily at Stanstead they dealt with this and you landed at piers that came out inside the international arrivals area and you just walked straight out.

Not sure where youre getting these prices from look at Manchester to Exeter you can easily get a return for around 100 quid which i did twice last year .and i would expect that to be about what they will charge for Carlisle to Southend with a surcharge of say about 50 quid on the early morning flight.

" if the old git stepped out in front of my car i wouldnt be looking for the brakes thats for sure "
Last edit: 22 Feb 2018 21:14 by NORTHERNSOUL.

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22 Feb 2018 21:18 #92 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Don’t they list flight times as gate to gate not how long the plane isn’t in the air?

There's only one way of life and that's your own!!!

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22 Feb 2018 21:21 #93 by pie
Replied by pie on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Oldbolt wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Oldbolt wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Oldbolt wrote: I'll give it 6 months max
After which point your only option to fly to Dublin will be on a freight flight - the real objective of the entire project all along


I can fully understand why you might think that but if you look at it if they do that the start-up grant is repayable [ not the enterprise one for the airport facilities ] so theres 5 million they could use to carry on subsidising it with.

And take no notice of people telling you how little you can get a train ticket for well try looking at a first class ticket on the first train in the morning i believe its in the region of 400 quid so i.d say if they charged 150 it would be petty well packed every day and then theres the Dublin flights with access to the USA flights and customs clearance as well as the seamless transfer to flights to just about everywhere else.

Stobart Air run airports thats what they do in spite of what the other arms of the company do.





The start-up grant is not repayable if it can be demonstrated that all efforts have been explored to make the venture viable

And you're well wide of the mark with your comparison with the trains
2 hour min check in, 70 min flight time, 55 min train ride to Liverpool St, - plus 20 min tube to central London = total minimum travel time of 4 hrs 25 mins - over an hour longer than Virgin train, which goes direct, without all of the hassle
No way would it be packed every day
Like I've said in this [and other] threads, they have no intention of maintaining passenger flights in the medium or long term. Their end game is an expanded haulage centre, with the option for air freight, from a facility paid for almost entirely from grants / external funding. All talk of passenger services is just that - talk. Just to oil the wheels


So you think theyd just let them off with 5 million quid do you just because they say " well we tried offering a few discounts "

If you see my post on the other thread you could check in say 15 mins before your flight [ don't forget there'll be no shops or anything if you arrive 2 hours early all you do is sit in the airside waiting room for 2 hours ]

At Blackpool you could show up 15 mins before departure and it would take you about the same to walk into the arrivals at Stanstead when you got there and if i remember right the flight took about 25 minutes

So lets say Carlisle to Southend would be double that and as i understand it you dont go to Liverpool St you get off and change to the tube earlier at a station with an easier connection and that will get even easier when crossrail opens but lets say an hour so i make that a total of 2hours 20 mins so an hour less than Virgin in reality.

And as you say single fare 195 so two of them just short of 400 quid like i said.


You don't remember correctly. Unless you were chartering a Lear Jet
Manchester to London is over an hour flight time,
Carlisle to Southend will be approx. 1hr 15 mins. The journey time to Liverpool St is 55 mins. And then tube into central London 20 mins
Even if all three of those journeys ran perfectly concurrently [which they wont], this is total journey time of 2.5 hours. By the time you allow for the check-in, waiting around for train from Southend, tube from Liverpool St - it will be neither as fast or convenient then the Virgin Train service


I can assure you the flight from Blackpool to Stanstead took nowhere near as long as that I.ve just asked someone i know who used it regularly and he reckons 40 mins absolute tops

Your quoting international airports there and believe me getting a plane at Blackpool [and how i assume it will be at Carlisle ] was much more like getting on a bus than getting an international flight luckily at Stanstead they dealt with this and you landed at piers that came out inside the international arrivals area and you just walked straight out.

Not sure where youre getting these prices from look at Manchester to Exeter you can easily get a return for around 100 quid which i did twice last year .and i would expect that to be about what they will charge for Carlisle to Southend with a surcharge of say about 50 quid on the early morning flight.


Used to do the shuttle into LHR a bit from MAN and BA would always have the flight time down as 1hr 5 mins (on arrivals/departures etc) - flight time was usually less than that but gate to gate was about right when running on time.

Looking at the MAN to Southend route this week (Aer Arann) - durations (in the air) were 40, 44, 42, 43 mins.

So depending on how you're interpreting what the flight time is (in the air vs plane moving) you're probably both right.

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22 Feb 2018 22:01 #94 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

pie wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Oldbolt wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Oldbolt wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Oldbolt wrote: I'll give it 6 months max
After which point your only option to fly to Dublin will be on a freight flight - the real objective of the entire project all along


I can fully understand why you might think that but if you look at it if they do that the start-up grant is repayable [ not the enterprise one for the airport facilities ] so theres 5 million they could use to carry on subsidising it with.

And take no notice of people telling you how little you can get a train ticket for well try looking at a first class ticket on the first train in the morning i believe its in the region of 400 quid so i.d say if they charged 150 it would be petty well packed every day and then theres the Dublin flights with access to the USA flights and customs clearance as well as the seamless transfer to flights to just about everywhere else.

Stobart Air run airports thats what they do in spite of what the other arms of the company do.





The start-up grant is not repayable if it can be demonstrated that all efforts have been explored to make the venture viable

And you're well wide of the mark with your comparison with the trains
2 hour min check in, 70 min flight time, 55 min train ride to Liverpool St, - plus 20 min tube to central London = total minimum travel time of 4 hrs 25 mins - over an hour longer than Virgin train, which goes direct, without all of the hassle
No way would it be packed every day
Like I've said in this [and other] threads, they have no intention of maintaining passenger flights in the medium or long term. Their end game is an expanded haulage centre, with the option for air freight, from a facility paid for almost entirely from grants / external funding. All talk of passenger services is just that - talk. Just to oil the wheels


So you think theyd just let them off with 5 million quid do you just because they say " well we tried offering a few discounts "

If you see my post on the other thread you could check in say 15 mins before your flight [ don't forget there'll be no shops or anything if you arrive 2 hours early all you do is sit in the airside waiting room for 2 hours ]

At Blackpool you could show up 15 mins before departure and it would take you about the same to walk into the arrivals at Stanstead when you got there and if i remember right the flight took about 25 minutes

So lets say Carlisle to Southend would be double that and as i understand it you dont go to Liverpool St you get off and change to the tube earlier at a station with an easier connection and that will get even easier when crossrail opens but lets say an hour so i make that a total of 2hours 20 mins so an hour less than Virgin in reality.

And as you say single fare 195 so two of them just short of 400 quid like i said.


You don't remember correctly. Unless you were chartering a Lear Jet
Manchester to London is over an hour flight time,
Carlisle to Southend will be approx. 1hr 15 mins. The journey time to Liverpool St is 55 mins. And then tube into central London 20 mins
Even if all three of those journeys ran perfectly concurrently [which they wont], this is total journey time of 2.5 hours. By the time you allow for the check-in, waiting around for train from Southend, tube from Liverpool St - it will be neither as fast or convenient then the Virgin Train service


I can assure you the flight from Blackpool to Stanstead took nowhere near as long as that I.ve just asked someone i know who used it regularly and he reckons 40 mins absolute tops

Your quoting international airports there and believe me getting a plane at Blackpool [and how i assume it will be at Carlisle ] was much more like getting on a bus than getting an international flight luckily at Stanstead they dealt with this and you landed at piers that came out inside the international arrivals area and you just walked straight out.

Not sure where youre getting these prices from look at Manchester to Exeter you can easily get a return for around 100 quid which i did twice last year .and i would expect that to be about what they will charge for Carlisle to Southend with a surcharge of say about 50 quid on the early morning flight.


Used to do the shuttle into LHR a bit from MAN and BA would always have the flight time down as 1hr 5 mins (on arrivals/departures etc) - flight time was usually less than that but gate to gate was about right when running on time.

Looking at the MAN to Southend route this week (Aer Arann) - durations (in the air) were 40, 44, 42, 43 mins.

So depending on how you're interpreting what the flight time is (in the air vs plane moving) you're probably both right.


Thats what i said i.d be very surprised if two and a half hours after getting out of your car at Carlisle Airport youre noy walking up the steps from the tube into the London air otherwise there really is no point in the first place.

" if the old git stepped out in front of my car i wouldnt be looking for the brakes thats for sure "

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22 Feb 2018 22:29 #95 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Just had a look and the first arrival into Southend tomorrow is 09.30 so that’s gonna be 11ish into central London depending on how long it takes to get off the plane and board a train. Prob too late for the business traveller and too early for someone checking into a hotel at 2. Just can’t see it beating the train. Plus it’s £17 each way for the train from Southend.

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22 Feb 2018 22:50 #96 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Best tip them off db before the planes arrive at Crosby

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is to have won the lottery of life !

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22 Feb 2018 23:02 #97 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

seesaw50 wrote: Best tip them off db before the planes arrive at Crosby


I hope it works Seesaw but I honestly think it’ll take as long as the train and be a lot more expensive. I only flew from Blackpool once and thought it was a great little airport but if they couldn’t make that work then this lot are really up against it. I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the posters above is right that they’ll say they tried and failed and just use it for freight. Get a flight to Alicante or Malaga and they can deffo count me in

There's only one way of life and that's your own!!!
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22 Feb 2018 23:34 #98 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

Dancingbear wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: Best tip them off db before the planes arrive at Crosby


I hope it works Seesaw but I honestly think it’ll take as long as the train and be a lot more expensive. I only flew from Blackpool once and thought it was a great little airport but if they couldn’t make that work then this lot are really up against it. I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the posters above is right that they’ll say they tried and failed and just use it for freight. Get a flight to Alicante or Malaga and they can deffo count me in


Stobarts were innovators of their time and are still pushing it is great to see, sad that a lot of the infrastructure is now based at Warrington/Appleton Thorn wherever it is and not Carlisle but they were forever trying to move further south from times past.

Ruling the roads, rail and air - they will be looking to rule the waves next :)

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23 Feb 2018 00:11 #99 by Urban Designer
Replied by Urban Designer on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread
Its viable for business only when you need to do a return journey in one day. Not sure there is a market for that in Cumbria. Much quicker getting the train even on a day return.

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23 Feb 2018 00:17 #100 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic Carlisle Lake District Airport Thread

Dancingbear wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: Best tip them off db before the planes arrive at Crosby


I hope it works Seesaw but I honestly think it’ll take as long as the train and be a lot more expensive. I only flew from Blackpool once and thought it was a great little airport but if they couldn’t make that work then this lot are really up against it. I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the posters above is right that they’ll say they tried and failed and just use it for freight. Get a flight to Alicante or Malaga and they can deffo count me in


The problem at Blackpool DP wasn't the airport itself it was the idiots who owned it who thought it was going to be a licence to print money when if the council had just kept hold of it and let it run at a slight profit and used it to promote the town and have got right into bed with Ryan Air instead of chasing them away and even then there were two others willing to take it on till they realised who the loony owners were and their mad ideas like the 10 quid charge.

Only airport i know where the number of holiday charter flights went up in winter rather than the other way

" if the old git stepped out in front of my car i wouldnt be looking for the brakes thats for sure "

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