The Brexit Thread

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24 May 2016 22:00 #1 by CCU
The Brexit Thread was created by CCU
This has been posted in a few places, probably similar to a few folks opinion/view...

"On June 23rd, I am expected to make one of the most important decisions in my life which could affect my children and grandchildren in a way I don’t even understand yet. I am an average guy with a family, a house, and a normal lifestyle. I am sort of Joe average. Some people have asked me recently about how I’m voting, mainly because they don’t know themselves and want another view or opinion. I’ve actually been quite interested in the opportunity to vote in the referendum and I’ve done some research and a lot of thinking and I know how I’m going to vote and why.

I am however, concerned about the broadcasting from our elected government. They also know what they want and why but we, the people, need our government to provide us with a balanced view so we, the people, can make our own mind up. For that to happen, we need to understand all the good points, and all the bad points. At the moment, I can understand why some people are gripped by fear that the world will end if we leave the EU.

But will it?

Well, I see 3 main areas, which I thought about. Political, economic and immigration.

Before I go any further, I have already accepted one thing. Any change will result in good things and not so good things. I can’t think of one example, which has changed, which hasn’t created some benefits and burdens.

Let’s get the easy one’s out of the way….

Political. – As a UK citizen, I want my laws determined by the MP’s we elected as a democracy should be. Our Lords are the regulators of the decisions made in the commons and I’m good with that. What I don’t want are laws imposed on me by people who weren’t elected and are trying to find a “One size fits all” solution to many different countries who all have different tolerances, expectations and cultures.

Of all of the imposed laws from the EU, I can live without a law that stipulates that cucumbers must not have a bend in excess of 10 degrees. Some of our politicians quite fancy a career in the EU after their own political career has come to and end in the UK and this is the reason why I think some of them are so keen to stay.

Economic – This is where I see, and accept, that things will be a little worse before they get better. Let’s get one thing clear though. Big business leaders only want one thing. More sales and bigger profits. That’s not wrong, it’s their job, and what shareholders expect. Quite simply, if the companies they’re running don’t make more money every year, they lose their job.

Imagine owning the only supermarket in a town where for the past 10 years, more and more people have come to live there and for the next 10 years, more and more people will arrive. If you owned that supermarket, you’d be rubbing your hands together. Now imagine that someone said that no more houses could be built and some people had to leave. You wouldn’t want that to happen so would disagree. And that’s what the impact will be, less people spending less money is not good for business. You can’t blame them for voting for Remain, but they’re only concerned about themselves.

I’ve also thought about the impact on house prices and rent. In 2000, I remember renting a massive house while I was in between house moves. The rent was £750 per month. Since the bulk addition of several European counties in 2004, rents have consistently increased beyond the rate of inflation. This is easy to understand, more people, not the equal number of more house increases competition for housing and increased rents. Increased rents mean better profits for landlords so people start to buy houses to rent out. Competition for houses increases which increases house prices.

And we all think this is great that the house some of us bought in the 90’s is now worth 3 times what we bought it for, we’re rich! But then I think of my children who can’t afford to buy a house now and I sometimes wonder whether they ever will. I was chatting to a guy at work last week who at the age of 32 had bought his first modest house with a 30 year mortgage. He was so pleased. But that doesn’t sit with me right. I bought my house (3 bed semi) when I was 22 with a 5% deposit and 3.5 times my salary. If the average salary is £22k, £77k doesn’t buy you anything now.

It might be an unpopular thought, but I want house prices to come down so my children can buy a 3 bed semi with a 5% deposit for 3.5 times their salary. And house prices will only come down if there is less competition and more houses built. I’m afraid you can’t achieve that by staying in the EU with an unlimited amount of potential people able to live and work here.

Also, on an economic front, there are too many people telling us that our economy will fall dramatically as we’ll have to negotiate new trade agreements with all the current EU countries. And let’s not forget Obama telling us all that we’ll be at the back of the queue with a trade deal with the USA.

Firstly, we’re a bigger importer than exporter, it’s always been that way. We buy more than we sell so therefore our buying power is more important than our selling power. For sure, some UK goods might be less attractive if import taxes are imposed on them from the EU if we leave but our customer is the world.

We have some of the most prestigious brands in the world. In no particular order, the one’s which come to mind are JCB, Rolls Royce, Burberry, Hotpoint, HSBC, Barclays, Tesco etc etc. I think we can confidently go global. Why do we want the EU to negotiate on our behalf?

And now for immigration. I have no idea why we’re all afraid to even bring up the subject but it does have a big impact and affects us all personally, socially and economically.

Over the past 12 years, since our immigration started to boom, I’ve met a lot of people who have moved to the UK to live and work. In general, I find the people I’ve met to be honest, hard working people with families who intend to make the most of the opportunity of living and working in the UK.

Our service industry is better for it, with many EU migrants choosing to work in many different sectors from coffee shops, to supermarkets. We’ve benefitted from many skills including the main building trades. Many trained nurses and doctors have joined our NHS. No doubt many more have arrived who have filled a skills gap we just don’t have and we, as a society have and are benefitting.

But there’s a problem that comes with this.

As a UK citizen, my personal belief is that the UK is the most attractive country in the EU. If you create a law that says that any citizen can freely choose where in the EU they can live and work, many will naturally choose to move to what they believe will give them the best opportunity to better themselves. Nothing wrong with that, it’s completely normal behaviour.

But if that country does not invest in infrastructure and services at the same rate of population growth two things happen. Things go up in price e.g. houses. And services become overstreched e.g. Doctors, schools, hospitals, roads etc.

The other thing I have an issue with is the type of immigration we have. I am absolutely convinced that we need immigration to thrive and prosper. Not just to ensure we have the right skills but also to make our society richer.

OK, so I can have my car hand washed for £3 just about anywhere now but how many unskilled people do we really need? I don’t think we need any. We have around 2 million of them sitting at home most days looking for a job. The broader problem is that we have created a society that believes not working is a choice and if they can’t be an instant celebrity, they refuse to work for minimum wage. We could solve that problem if we really wanted to.

I also see communities within communities. There are street’s I walk down now that I used to walk down 12 years ago where I only ever hear foreign languages being spoken and European shops selling European goods to European people. That doesn’t feel like an integrated society and I don’t really like it.

I want immigration, but I want to attract people from all over the world who have skills we need and who can add value to the place I live and work. I want those people to choose to come here because they like the values we live by, and want to be part of it.

I also don’t like the laws which are imposed on us that says we have to pay all EU immigrants the same social security benefits as UK citizens when we have no control over where that money is spent. At least the 2 million people sitting at home claiming job seekers allowance are spending that money here, benefitting our own economy but I can’t get my head around how a working father from the EU can claim working families tax credits, family allowance, income support and send as much back to his family in his native country as he chooses. When the minimum wage in the UK is 10 times higher than some eastern European countries and benefits are higher, how can we allow that money to be used in another economy where the cost of living is a fraction of the UK?

Imagine being a call handler in a call centre, a pretty average job on £18k to £20k a year. Now imagine another country you could move to, to do the same job for £200k a year. It’s an opportunity not to be missed. You’d live as cheaply as possible and send every spare penny home.

There are many people who are doing just that in the UAE. But the UAE are a growing country who need and want our skills. They’ve already stated to create laws themselves to ensure emirate people are at the front of the queue for jobs and skills. And there’s no hand outs or public services, everything is private sector and when you have no work, it’s goodbye.

I completely understand why Churchill had his vision for a “United States of Europe” after world war two. When created, the common market was brilliant and has served us well over the decades. But nothing lasts forever and things change.

I don’t remember agreeing to or voting for all the things which have been imposed on me. And I certainly don’t like what’s ahead of me either.

So on balance I’m voting to leave the EU. I accept it will have an economic impact. My house may reduce in value, some people may lose their jobs, the £ may fall in value so holidays might cost a bit more.

But if my children can buy a house and pay off a mortgage within their working life, if their children can go to a school that they choose, if I can get an appointment at the doctors or hospital treatment and not sit in hours of traffic every day then I’ll be happy with that.

And in the future, when the UK is back to being the greatest country in the world that attracts the most talented people from all over the world who create the industries and brands that create job opportunities for the future generations, I can look back and feel that I did the right thing.

Anon."

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!
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24 May 2016 22:22 - 24 May 2016 22:22 #2 by loser
Replied by loser on topic The Brexit Thread

CCU wrote: So on balance, without really adding any balance at all, I’m voting to leave the EU.


Fixed that for him.

CCU wrote: And in the future, when the UK is back to being the greatest country in the world


lol
Last edit: 24 May 2016 22:22 by loser.
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24 May 2016 22:50 #3 by Tom
Replied by Tom on topic The Brexit Thread
I can't be arsed to read all that. Was there a point to it in the end?

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24 May 2016 23:16 #4 by loser
Replied by loser on topic The Brexit Thread

Tom wrote: I can't be arsed to read all that. Was there a point to it in the end?

Just an article by the Leave campaign that tries to give an illusion of balance at the start but then just labours the usual points. Aimed at working-class undecided voters in an attempt to make them think "Well that could have been written by me, I'm an average Joe!". Pretty decent ploy in all fairness, if a bit of an insult to people's intelligence.

The whole campaign has been that from both sides though. Prick politicians talking down to us and insulting our intelligence. I'm yet to see an actual balanced article. No one seems to be able to write one without undercurrents of favouring one side over the other.

The Leave campaign are hypocrites, giving it all this "project fear" sh*te when they are just as bad for it as the Remain campaign.

I don't buy into the argument that you shouldn't let the personalities on each side of the campaign contribute to your decision either. It's perfectly natural not to want to side with the likes of Boris, Gove, IDS and Farage. Some of the worst [censored] in politics, I find it too much of a coincidence that the Leave campaign has attracted the worst sort of people. I also find it too much of a coincidence that I've seen far more illiterate morons backing the Leave campaign than I have backing Remain.

I think for me it just comes down to the lesser of two evils. Who would you rather take advice from? Cameron and Osborne or Gove and Johnson? Well, neither preferably, but if I had to choose...

Whatever happens we'll still have an elite ruling class who want to see the rich get richer at the expense of everyone else. I might not bother voting and just let nature take its course. In the meantime pseudo-balanced articles like the above, from either side of the argument, can [censored] off.

At the end of the day you've just got to try to make the best of your life that you can and hope that one day you'll be in a position where politics affects you in the least way possible.
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24 May 2016 23:19 - 24 May 2016 23:20 #5 by loser
Replied by loser on topic The Brexit Thread
One thing I do agree on in that article is that there will be benefits whatever the outcome.

I just can't see how the benefits of leaving will be worth the few years of financial shock that would follow a leave vote. Will house prices really drop in the long term? Nah, will they [censored]. Not while greed reigns supreme.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Last edit: 24 May 2016 23:20 by loser.

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25 May 2016 00:37 #6 by deeksme
Replied by deeksme on topic The Brexit Thread
Considered stopping reading after "easy one's", should definitely have knocked it on the head at "Our Lords are the regulators of the decisions made in the commons and I’m good with that"

What a load of clart.

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25 May 2016 07:24 #7 by pacirv
Replied by pacirv on topic The Brexit Thread
Loser at last a decent viewpoint seems to me in general that a lot of people are being swayed by the brexit argument. It's not like if the vote goes that way that if it turns out to be the wrong decision that we can go back cap in hand begging to be let back in. The bit that bothers me is the people backing the out like Boris and Farage don't fancy the idea of the lunatics running the asylum.

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25 May 2016 08:10 #8 by Yorkie Blue
Replied by Yorkie Blue on topic The Brexit Thread
Whilst it`s fair to say the leave campaign so far hasn`t been too dynamic, the stay campaign has increasingly sounded like a drama queen going into hyperdrive. We`ve had everything, financial meltdown, social unrest, trade barriers, war etc should we leave, I`m still waiting for the threat of plagues of locusts and boils affecting the population at large. Hardly anything positive on the benefits of remaining in the EU is coming from the stay campaign. Is this because there`s little benefit in remaining in the EU.


Fish and chips and mushy peas are all my brain and body needs
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25 May 2016 08:39 #9 by Lufbrablue
Replied by Lufbrablue on topic The Brexit Thread
Personally I am in the remain camp.
Britain the best country in the world, what a load of rubbish. Its a bit like the big football club debate on the celtic/rangers thread. depends what you base it on.

Also sick of being told that our laws should not be made by unelected officials in brussels when we have an ever expanding house of lords with each party letting their mates in. What has Karren Brady done to deserve a place in there over some hard working teacher or doctor who may be able to add some real experience to law changes. Perhaps after this referendum we can have one on the house of lords

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25 May 2016 08:57 #10 by Stamfordblue
Replied by Stamfordblue on topic The Brexit Thread
Whatever happens the economy will recover if we leave but for me the important question is immigration. How can we keep taking more and more people we are an island after all. In my job I travel around the country and visit areas where English is now the second language. If we continue as we are the pressure on the health service will increase to breaking point, if we are not already there. The housing shortage will increase so our kids cannot afford homes of their own and wages will be driven down so our standard of living will suffer.

I am all for a common market but the EU has moved beyond that concept so if your happy to struggle for health care, housing and put up with lower wages then vote to stay for me I think we need a change.

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25 May 2016 09:37 - 25 May 2016 10:01 #11 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic The Brexit Thread
The leave brigade are coming out as the more credible I'd say.. No good reasons given really why we should remain ....to my mind the main problem worrying people is down to the break up of the social fabric of the country, in certain areas. The vote will be determined by the people of areas like Kent Lincolnshire, and areas of London Birmingham Manchester and other sizeable towns where migrants have clustered. This anti feeling is not just in the UK is it.
As is said in the article above Britain is the most attractive country within the EU at present ..what the EU mandarins need to do therefore is concentrate their minds on raising living standards in the poorer member states. They no doubt are pouring money into those states ..they need to take action to enforce change .

Only a matter of time before the whole thing implodes ..us leaving must force change in the philosophy of the whole project.

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is to have won the lottery of life !

Last edit: 25 May 2016 10:01 by seesaw50.

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25 May 2016 10:05 #12 by CheadleBlue
Replied by CheadleBlue on topic The Brexit Thread
To me the whole argument is flawed. Even those on the remain side say that the EU must change and we're better off staying and attempting to reform it from within. They're asking us to vote for something that doesn't exist.

Since the Scots voted to stay in the United Kingdom there's been much talk of devolved powers, greater powers for the member assemblies, local mayors etc. Then on the other hand they are asking us to stay in this enormous centralised governing body.

If we weren't in would we be banging on the door asking to be let in? All those who do seem keen to join would be net gainers, Switzerland and Norway don't seem too keen to join.

I do worry that I seem to be siding with some total arseholes.

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25 May 2016 10:27 - 25 May 2016 10:33 #13 by DeckchairBlue
Replied by DeckchairBlue on topic The Brexit Thread
Once we vote to remain in i think we should go all the way, no deals or vetos, the way forward is a fully federalised United States of Europe.

A true superpower to rival the USA, Russia and China. 500m population, shared resources and the biggest economy in the world.
Last edit: 25 May 2016 10:33 by DeckchairBlue.

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25 May 2016 10:30 #14 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic The Brexit Thread
But Switzerland and Norway are in....except they have no say at the top table. Why would they accept those terms....they pay in, accept all the rules but aren`t FULL members so have no say in anything that`s FORCED on other member states. As for trying to "change from within"....can`t be done they won`t/don`t listen. ...only changes are those dreamt up by Brussels to push forward this Socialist project regardless.

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25 May 2016 10:32 #15 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic The Brexit Thread

DeckchairBlue wrote: Once we vote to remain in i think we should go all the way, no deals or vetos, the way forward is a fully federalised United States of Europe.

and keep the red flag flying there!!!!!You are joking I take it.

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25 May 2016 10:34 #16 by DeckchairBlue
Replied by DeckchairBlue on topic The Brexit Thread

seesaw50 wrote:

DeckchairBlue wrote: Once we vote to remain in i think we should go all the way, no deals or vetos, the way forward is a fully federalised United States of Europe.

and keep the red flag flying there!!!!!You are joking I take it.


Not joking at all my friend. It's the only way forwards.

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25 May 2016 10:39 #17 by DeckchairBlue
Replied by DeckchairBlue on topic The Brexit Thread

seesaw50 wrote: But Switzerland and Norway are in....except they have no say at the top table. Why would they accept those terms....they pay in, accept all the rules but aren`t FULL members so have no say in anything that`s FORCED on other member states. As for trying to "change from within"....can`t be done they won`t/don`t listen. ...only changes are those dreamt up by Brussels to push forward this Socialist project regardless.


How are we forced ? We have 10% of the MEP's, we have a rep on the commission.

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25 May 2016 11:02 #18 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic The Brexit Thread

DeckchairBlue wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: But Switzerland and Norway are in....except they have no say at the top table. Why would they accept those terms....they pay in, accept all the rules but aren`t FULL members so have no say in anything that`s FORCED on other member states. As for trying to "change from within"....can`t be done they won`t/don`t listen. ...only changes are those dreamt up by Brussels to push forward this Socialist project regardless.


How are we forced ? We have 10% of the MEP's, we have a rep on the commission.

It works a bit like NS CUOSC`s top man. No clout ..... seen as whinging Brits..........the recent poorer accession states don`t want to to rock the boat coz they are being given Billions which probably disappear into the ether......the mentality of some of these countries, ex Soviet ruled, is dog eat dog. Why are their citizens fleeing to" Utopia" . As for security, we have the millitarialy impotent Germany playing the skinch card in any international skirmishes...Italy similar ...France does the absolute minimum....get the idea. Basically we are not better together....we are a key member of Nato and will remain so.

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25 May 2016 11:24 - 25 May 2016 11:25 #19 by DeckchairBlue
Replied by DeckchairBlue on topic The Brexit Thread

seesaw50 wrote:

DeckchairBlue wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: But Switzerland and Norway are in....except they have no say at the top table. Why would they accept those terms....they pay in, accept all the rules but aren`t FULL members so have no say in anything that`s FORCED on other member states. As for trying to "change from within"....can`t be done they won`t/don`t listen. ...only changes are those dreamt up by Brussels to push forward this Socialist project regardless.


How are we forced ? We have 10% of the MEP's, we have a rep on the commission.

It works a bit like NS CUOSC`s top man. No clout ..... seen as whinging Brits..........the recent poorer accession states don`t want to to rock the boat coz they are being given Billions which probably disappear into the ether......the mentality of some of these countries, ex Soviet ruled, is dog eat dog. Why are their citizens fleeing to" Utopia" . As for security, we have the millitarialy impotent Germany playing the skinch card in any international skirmishes...Italy similar ...France does the absolute minimum....get the idea. Basically we are not better together....we are a key member of Nato and will remain so.


Federalise, solves the military issue, everyone contributes and have a European army. Saves everyone money.
Last edit: 25 May 2016 11:25 by DeckchairBlue.

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25 May 2016 11:43 #20 by Flatcap
Replied by Flatcap on topic The Brexit Thread
We will still get loads of immigration whether we stay in or leave the EU. Always have and always will, as long as people from elsewhere think they will be better off here.

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25 May 2016 12:04 #21 by DeckchairBlue
Replied by DeckchairBlue on topic The Brexit Thread

Flatcap wrote: We will still get loads of immigration whether we stay in or leave the EU. Always have and always will, as long as people from elsewhere think they will be better off here.


People seem to think that coming out of the EU makes us an island fortress, forgetting that we have a land border with the EU in Northern Ireland.

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25 May 2016 12:05 #22 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic The Brexit Thread

Flatcap wrote: We will still get loads of immigration whether we stay in or leave the EU. Always have and always will, as long as people from elsewhere think they will be better off here.


If we're out we can at least set our own rules on immigration, points system etc...

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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25 May 2016 13:39 #23 by johnmc
Replied by johnmc on topic The Brexit Thread
Can't deny some of that is quite smartly put together but there are holes you can drive a bus through.

On immigration for instance the bottom line is surely this:

'Would I (or anyone else) do the jobs being done by EU migrants (fruit picking, waitressing, working in care homes, car washing etc) for the wages they're getting?'

The answer is usually 'no'. And that's important. These are things we need and want people to do, and they have to be done here. It isn't as easy as saying 'there are people who will do those jobs', because there aren't.

Also, if you look at the longer term trends (I only have as it used to be my job!) there's strong evidence to indicate that the fact that people from the EU come to do 'entry level' jobs has actually improved prospects for UK natives. Since 2005 there's been a huge up spike in Brits in supervisory or white collar roles.

And that's even before starting on the taxes paid, wages spent and so on. Sure some migrant workers send money back to extended families, but they buy food, go to the pub and so on - and so are creating jobs here as well!

Another point to reflect is the transient nature. The average 'stay' in the UK for a migrant worker is around 3 years. Sure, as they leave others arrive but it doesn't bear out this idea that the fundamental character of the UK is changing forever (to which my view is - so what? - but recognise that others disagree). It also suggests that the 'NHS and housing supply at breaking points' are essentially BS. Until we have a good way of tracking people 'out' of the country (i.e. never) we can't properly estimate the figures properly either.

Last point (promise) - just our luck we speak the lingua franca of the world, huh? Should have thought about all these Polish builders when we were building an Empire...

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25 May 2016 13:41 #24 by johnmc
Replied by johnmc on topic The Brexit Thread

CCU wrote:

Flatcap wrote: We will still get loads of immigration whether we stay in or leave the EU. Always have and always will, as long as people from elsewhere think they will be better off here.


If we're out we can at least set our own rules on immigration, points system etc...


In theory, yes.

In practice, no.

See Norway for example. Or, for that matter, any country which enters a trade agreement with the EU. Remember Kolpak cricketers? Worked both ways.

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25 May 2016 14:08 #25 by orfc
Replied by orfc on topic The Brexit Thread


There was a programme last night, forgot the channel, about how 75% of the NHS is foreign workers! We've got 2 million unemployed here and they're letting in nurses and brain surgeons from all over the shop! And Boris reckons by 2017, people born in Britain will be a minority - in Britain! And then they'll be able to change the laws so they can all get in - fact! And then you've got your red tape, mate runs a cafe down the industrial estate right, and they're making him paying 100 grand to get new drains put in because the old ones blocked with fat and caught fire. He's had to fire two of his staff that got burnt to try and pay, and that's even when he was paying cash-in-hand in the first place. They just want to squash the little man down. You know the size of the book on eu regulations right? If you printed it - double-sided - it would be 600 feet tall. Go and have a look down the library, it's all there, it has to be by eu law. This is what we get for giving 200% of our GDP to the EU, and then we have to pay to borrow it back! It's enough to make you want to emigrate innit? I'm going to Spain, [censored] this shithole, weather's amazing.
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25 May 2016 14:59 #26 by CumbrianView
Replied by CumbrianView on topic The Brexit Thread
I for one will not be any different the next day after the vote.The only problem i have with it and this is from a totally selfish point of view is the effect on the stock market as that's were i get some of my income from. All rest does not bother me but two of the best comments i heard were 1:its not about the economy its about our Country something our government seems to be forgetting 2: The British people are like Red Squirrels only existing in small areas around Britain something the leave campaign should be pushing more.So all in all no difference to me i dont work am retired live comfortably .So maybe i will toss a coin on the day see what happens :evil:

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25 May 2016 16:10 - 25 May 2016 16:12 #27 by DeckchairBlue
Replied by DeckchairBlue on topic The Brexit Thread
The view that british people will become a minority is a total and utterly bullshit myth. 10/11% of the UK is currently foreign born, compared with a EU average of 8%. So if people really think that as a result of the referendum 30 odd million folk are going to suddenly move to the UK they need their heads checking.

Foreigners coming over and doing cheap labour is another myth. Everybody has to be paid minimum wage, the jobs they do aren't necessarily minimum wage. I live in Lincolnshire and you can get between £10-15phr for picking veg depending on how good you are at it. I work in a care home, a couple of our staff are Lithuanian, we aren't on minimum wage and neither are they.

The reason we rely on foreign workers in these industries among others is because a generation of Brits (not all) seem to have grown up with a false sense of entitlement and think that of they leave school they'll walk into their dream job without having to do any work, and as a result reject any job which they deem below them. I know this because I went to school with quite a few who eventually realised they had to live in the real world.

We need to realise that we are part of a wider world now and embrace it rather than trying to isolate ourselves in little old England.
Last edit: 25 May 2016 16:12 by DeckchairBlue.
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25 May 2016 20:09 #28 by mojo
Replied by mojo on topic The Brexit Thread
the best reason for voting 'out' is that Cameron and his lying thieving scheming ilk, want us to stay in.

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25 May 2016 20:32 #29 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic The Brexit Thread

mojo wrote: the best reason for voting 'out' is that Cameron and his lying thieving scheming ilk, want us to stay in.


That's what I thought but now I think they're probably lieing about not wanting out. His mate Gideon definitely needs a good kick in the balls from both camps the snivelling little shit.

There's only one way of life and that's your own!!!

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25 May 2016 20:40 - 25 May 2016 20:42 #30 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic The Brexit Thread
Foreigners coming over and doing cheap labour is another myth. Everybody has to be paid minimum wage, the jobs they do aren't necessarily minimum wage. I live in Lincolnshire and you can get between £10-15phr for picking veg depending on how good you are at it. I work in a care home, a couple of our staff are Lithuanian, we aren't on minimum wage and neither are they. Yes this is the bit I don`t buy either Deckchair......maybe in the building industry where there`s self employment maybe you are getting undercutting but any other workplace has a wage structure AND the minimum, now living wage as law. On balance tho both for the present and the not too distant future the only option in my opinion is leave.

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25 May 2016 20:46 #31 by Bruntonpasty
Replied by Bruntonpasty on topic The Brexit Thread
I'm an out, but, even if the vote says out, I don't believe we will leave. Europe won't let/doesn't want us to leave because we tip more in than we get out (the numbers don't really matter) They realise that the rest of them would have to make up the deficit. If we vote out, there will be offers and negotiations to keep us in, and dodgy Dave and Osbourne will fall for it.

Of interest to me is Corbyn. Most or pretty much all his career against the EU, now prepared to stay in but very very quiet in comparison to the rest.

They don't like it up 'em!

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25 May 2016 20:53 #32 by MerseysideBlue
Replied by MerseysideBlue on topic The Brexit Thread

Bruntonpasty wrote: Of interest to me is Corbyn. Most or pretty much all his career against the EU, now prepared to stay in but very very quiet in comparison to the rest.


He's been out campaigning for it most days recently if his Snapchat is owt to go by. Suspect people just don't hear about it as much as the main story here is how the Tory party is tearing itself apart - to them it's not a referendum, it's a fight for the future leadership.

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25 May 2016 21:41 #33 by mojo
Replied by mojo on topic The Brexit Thread

Bruntonpasty wrote: I'm an out, but, even if the vote says out, I don't believe we will leave. Europe won't let/doesn't want us to leave because we tip more in than we get out (the numbers don't really matter) They realise that the rest of them would have to make up the deficit. If we vote out, there will be offers and negotiations to keep us in, and dodgy Dave and Osbourne will fall for it.

Of interest to me is Corbyn. Most or pretty much all his career against the EU, now prepared to stay in but very very quiet in comparison to the rest.


I think it would have to a really blatant 90-10 split in favour of 'out' for it to actually happen. Europe won't let/doesn't want us to leave because if we left, it would be the catalyst for others to want out and in no time the whole thing would collapse
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25 May 2016 22:18 #34 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic The Brexit Thread

seesaw50 wrote: Foreigners coming over and doing cheap labour is another myth. Everybody has to be paid minimum wage, the jobs they do aren't necessarily minimum wage. I live in Lincolnshire and you can get between £10-15phr for picking veg depending on how good you are at it. I work in a care home, a couple of our staff are Lithuanian, we aren't on minimum wage and neither are they. Yes this is the bit I don`t buy either Deckchair......maybe in the building industry where there`s self employment maybe you are getting undercutting but any other workplace has a wage structure AND the minimum, now living wage as law. On balance tho both for the present and the not too distant future the only option in my opinion is leave.


Yes of course they pay the minimum wage and even above it but then they deduct up to £200 a week for their accommodation..
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26 May 2016 08:53 #35 by Northumbrian
Replied by Northumbrian on topic The Brexit Thread

johnmc wrote:

CCU wrote:

Flatcap wrote: We will still get loads of immigration whether we stay in or leave the EU. Always have and always will, as long as people from elsewhere think they will be better off here.


If we're out we can at least set our own rules on immigration, points system etc...


In theory, yes.

In practice, no.

See Norway for example. Or, for that matter, any country which enters a trade agreement with the EU. Remember Kolpak cricketers? Worked both ways.

Stop buying into this Norway and Switzerland BS.... we aren't them... we are a much much bigger and more important market than them to EU countries.... and crucially we are a net importer.... we buy way more products from the EU than they do from us... we have a much better bargaining position than either Norway or Switzerland... The EU countries would lose out far more than us if there was no trade agreement. Whilst they may cover the losses in the short term to prove a point there is no way they will cover those net trade losses in the longer term. We have the position of strength longer term and therefore we should come out with a much better deal than Norway. By the way why are people always banging on about Norway's deal and not mentioning Canada, who have a much better deal with the EU proving it is possible to negotiate this.
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26 May 2016 09:15 - 26 May 2016 09:16 #36 by Northumbrian
Replied by Northumbrian on topic The Brexit Thread
Here is my take on migration and one of the reasons why I will be voting out:

I used to be very pro-European and I have never bought into the nationalistic rhetoric surrounding immigration. My belief is that immigration has been a very positive thing for this country and has driven our economy for the last decade. My experience of the migrants is that they have a much better work ethic than our own youth and are generally much better educated and trained than our own youth. Without migrants filling jobs that our own kids deem beneath them our economy would have been in the crap over the last decade. Generally migrants at the moment make a net contribution to this country..... HOWEVER, you can't go on increasing your population endlessly without it causing massive problems.... the ONS predicts that the population of the UK could reach 80 million people if it stays in the EU, making us one of the most populated in the country in the EU. Where will those 10m+ additional people live? we are already one of the most densely populated countries in Europe and already have a massive housing shortage.... that is building another 10 Manchester's somewhere in the country. Then you have the issue of infrastructure.... we would have to build new road and rail networks, schools, hospitals, public services on a massive scale to cope with those increases... with our massive debt burden where is that money coming from? Okay you could say this would be funded by a higher performing economy thanks to migration... but that is wildly optimistic... and don't forget the better our economy is doing the more attractive the country becomes and the higher the population becomes if we are in the EU. I'm a great believer that migration is hugely positive up to a point when infrastructure and population density can cope... in my opinion we have now reached the tipping point on that. We are pretty full and our infrastructure is creaking already. Don't get me wrong, I still believe that we need skilled migrants to fill skill gaps moving forward and the immigration policy should be skill based moving forward.... however, if we remain in the EU there is no way we can prevent migration... it's impossible to control the numbers and the quality of those entering the country. Yes migration will still exist but at least we would be able to control it to ensure the right level and kind of migrants enter the country if we leave the EU.
Last edit: 26 May 2016 09:16 by Northumbrian.

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26 May 2016 09:41 #37 by orfc
Replied by orfc on topic The Brexit Thread

Northumbrian wrote: The EU countries would lose out far more than us if there was no trade agreement. .


The brexiteers always latch onto the fact we buy more from the eu than we sell. This ignores, well, basically the rest of the world

our exports to the eu are 45% of all our exports (for import it's 55%) - half of our international trade would need fresh agreements

the rest of the eu's exports to the uk are only 16% of the eu's exports, and our exports to them would only account for 12% of everything the eu imports

www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/after-brexit-how-im...e-be-eu#.V0a1f_krLcs

"we would become one of the EU’s largest export markets, even if not necessarily the largest. But we’d still be far less important to the EU than they are to us "

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26 May 2016 10:18 #38 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic The Brexit Thread

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: Foreigners coming over and doing cheap labour is another myth. Everybody has to be paid minimum wage, the jobs they do aren't necessarily minimum wage. I live in Lincolnshire and you can get between £10-15phr for picking veg depending on how good you are at it. I work in a care home, a couple of our staff are Lithuanian, we aren't on minimum wage and neither are they. Yes this is the bit I don`t buy either Deckchair......maybe in the building industry where there`s self employment maybe you are getting undercutting but any other workplace has a wage structure AND the minimum, now living wage as law. On balance tho both for the present and the not too distant future the only option in my opinion is leave.


Yes of course they pay the minimum wage and even above it but then they deduct up to £200 a week for their accommodation..

at last NS a topic you know nothing about!!!!! Who's they for a start.?

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26 May 2016 10:18 #39 by Arragorn
Replied by Arragorn on topic The Brexit Thread
The basic problem is that everyone knows what we get if we stay in the EU but NO ONE knows for certain what will happen if we vote to leave. It is all pure speculation by both sides of the argument.
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26 May 2016 10:33 - 26 May 2016 13:09 #40 by Northumbrian
Replied by Northumbrian on topic The Brexit Thread

orfc wrote:

Northumbrian wrote: The EU countries would lose out far more than us if there was no trade agreement. .


The brexiteers always latch onto the fact we buy more from the eu than we sell. This ignores, well, basically the rest of the world

our exports to the eu are 45% of all our exports (for import it's 55%) - half of our international trade would need fresh agreements

the rest of the eu's exports to the uk are only 16% of the eu's exports, and our exports to them would only account for 12% of everything the eu imports

www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/after-brexit-how-im...e-be-eu#.V0a1f_krLcs

"we would become one of the EU’s largest export markets, even if not necessarily the largest. But we’d still be far less important to the EU than they are to us "

I was mainly focusing on the fact we are net importers from the EU and direct trade agreements between those countries.... if you want to talk about the impact on trade deals throughout the world then that actually strengthens the Leave argument. The EU has proved itself to be massively inept at setting up trade agreements over the last few years and is actually a millstone around our necks when it comes to getting trade deals with the new huge developing markets. Basically these trade agreements don't exist because certain countries and elements of the EU are massively protectionist and they are effectively blocking a trade deal. It would actually be much easier to negotiate our own free trade deals without being held back by the EU.

If you want proof at how inept they are at negotiating deals "on our behalf" you just have to look at their promises made in 2012 when the European Commission announced it was putting together trade deals with the USA, Japan, ASEAN, India and Mercosor.... four years on and they have utterly failed.... actually it is wrong to blame this on inept negotiation, the reality is that elements of the EU are actively blocking these deals. During the same period Iceland and Switzerland have independently negotiated free trade deals with China. The UK needs to access huge developing markets like China and India on a free trade basis... to suggest we have a better chance of that with the EU is preposterous and just plain wrong.... all of the evidence shows the EU are hopeless at negotiating these deals and we would be much better off negotiating as an individual country.

Edited to add some background that shows the EU is bloody awful at negotiating trade deals:

In terms of size, the area of the world that the EU has trade agreements with has a GDP of just over $7 Trillion.... which sounds like it is a huge free trade area.... but compare that to countries who have negotiated on an individual country basis and it puts it into context.... Switzerland has free trade agreements with areas that have a total of $40 Trillion... Even Chile has managed to negotiate free trade agreements with an area of the world with $58 Trillion... Chile has been 8 times more effective in setting up Trade agreements than the EU! Sure we will have to go back and negotiate these deals initially but longer term, even if we only do as well as Chile or Switzerland we will be in a much better trade position in the longer term on a global scale.

The EU has been "negotiating" with Mercosur (much of South America) since 1999.... that is 17 years and no success. They have been negotiating a trade deal with India for 9 years and are no further forward. The potential deal with the USA looks likely to hit the rocks as the French Trade minister said that France is ready to walk away from the deal and won't ratify the deal www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36191577 .... and that is exactly the problem the EU has.... we are being held back by protectionist governments like France. It is a fatal flaw in the EU when it comes to trade.
Last edit: 26 May 2016 13:09 by Northumbrian.

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26 May 2016 14:55 #41 by Fat Boy Slim Fast
Replied by Fat Boy Slim Fast on topic The Brexit Thread
Deckchairblue - you clearly work for the EU. You're a brainwashed slave!

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26 May 2016 16:52 #42 by DeckchairBlue
Replied by DeckchairBlue on topic The Brexit Thread
Not at all, I just see myself as European and not just British.

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26 May 2016 17:25 #43 by Bruntonpasty
Replied by Bruntonpasty on topic The Brexit Thread

DeckchairBlue wrote: Not at all, I just see myself as European and not just British.


Nowt particularly wrong with that Deckchair, I can accept that, I just don't want to be a member of "the club" anymore.

They don't like it up 'em!

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26 May 2016 18:00 - 26 May 2016 18:23 #44 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic The Brexit Thread
Anybody watch Boris versus Dave last night....insite into their political histories .....anyhow BJs dad worked for the European Commission and BJ has been a Daily Telegraph reporter based in Brussels for some time both will therefore know the crack over many years! DC was number 2 to Norman Lamont in John Majors Tory government NL pro Europe iin those days.... Strangely Lamont is now an Outer as is Nigel Lawson also ex chancellor !!

Vote Leave on June 23rd

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26 May 2016 18:02 #45 by Waltero
Replied by Waltero on topic The Brexit Thread
what we get is our right to decide whats best for our country and not what a bunch of unelected beurocrats decide what they think is best for our country. out out out let them drag themselves down

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26 May 2016 18:04 #46 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic The Brexit Thread
Be interested to see what the voter turnout is when this vote comes. Seems to be plenty folk intending to vote as opposed to the last general election...

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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26 May 2016 18:09 #47 by Waltero
Replied by Waltero on topic The Brexit Thread
more at stake this time ie our right to decide whats best for britain

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26 May 2016 23:08 #48 by DeckchairBlue
Replied by DeckchairBlue on topic The Brexit Thread

Waltero wrote: what we get is our right to decide whats best for our country and not what a bunch of unelected beurocrats decide what they think is best for our country. out out out let them drag themselves down


As opposed to how our current government works. Elected politicians who couldnt give a damn what their constituants think vote how they see fit only for the unelected House of Lords to veto anything they don't like.
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26 May 2016 23:09 #49 by DeckchairBlue
Replied by DeckchairBlue on topic The Brexit Thread

Bruntonpasty wrote:

DeckchairBlue wrote: Not at all, I just see myself as European and not just British.


Nowt particularly wrong with that Deckchair, I can accept that, I just don't want to be a member of "the club" anymore.


I respect your opinion and your right to have one.

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27 May 2016 10:30 #50 by Stamfordblue
Replied by Stamfordblue on topic The Brexit Thread

Northumbrian wrote: Here is my take on migration and one of the reasons why I will be voting out:

I used to be very pro-European and I have never bought into the nationalistic rhetoric surrounding immigration. My belief is that immigration has been a very positive thing for this country and has driven our economy for the last decade. My experience of the migrants is that they have a much better work ethic than our own youth and are generally much better educated and trained than our own youth. Without migrants filling jobs that our own kids deem beneath them our economy would have been in the crap over the last decade. Generally migrants at the moment make a net contribution to this country..... HOWEVER, you can't go on increasing your population endlessly without it causing massive problems.... the ONS predicts that the population of the UK could reach 80 million people if it stays in the EU, making us one of the most populated in the country in the EU. Where will those 10m+ additional people live? we are already one of the most densely populated countries in Europe and already have a massive housing shortage.... that is building another 10 Manchester's somewhere in the country. Then you have the issue of infrastructure.... we would have to build new road and rail networks, schools, hospitals, public services on a massive scale to cope with those increases... with our massive debt burden where is that money coming from? Okay you could say this would be funded by a higher performing economy thanks to migration... but that is wildly optimistic... and don't forget the better our economy is doing the more attractive the country becomes and the higher the population becomes if we are in the EU. I'm a great believer that migration is hugely positive up to a point when infrastructure and population density can cope... in my opinion we have now reached the tipping point on that. We are pretty full and our infrastructure is creaking already. Don't get me wrong, I still believe that we need skilled migrants to fill skill gaps moving forward and the immigration policy should be skill based moving forward.... however, if we remain in the EU there is no way we can prevent migration... it's impossible to control the numbers and the quality of those entering the country. Yes migration will still exist but at least we would be able to control it to ensure the right level and kind of migrants enter the country if we leave the EU.


Staying in the EU means we cannot stop migration but at what point do we say we are full and no more. The NHS is struggling to cope, we do not have the houses to accommodate the people already here and schools are struggling to cope not only with the numbers but also the different nationalities. Do we continue membership and continue to allow migration or do we say stop we want control. Yes we will have migrants but only those we actually need and can accommodate. To say Dave renegotiated good terms for the UK is laughable .
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