New Workington stadium at last

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09 Apr 2019 16:24 - 09 Apr 2019 16:29 #51 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic New Workington stadium at last

Laffy wrote: We seem to live in an age when nobody elected to represent the people is prepared to make a decision for fear of reprisals.

The town desperately needs this facility-get on with it


Yes, it does but not when it's going to cost the towns sports clubs and local businesses nearly 100m for a stadium thats only going to cost 25 to build.

The council should just borrow the money at a low interest rate from the PWB and then charge the tenants rents that would give them a return of say 100k a year over and above the loan and interest repayments so as to give the areas council taxpayers a return on their investment to compensate for the risk.

Clearly what theyre doing supposedly stops their exposure should the worst happen and the clubs fold and BNFL [ or whatever theyre calling themselves this week ] decide they no longer need the office space and theyre left with nobody to pay the rents Well i.ve got news for you Allerdale the operating company would probrably just put itself into administration meaning the insurers or finaciers would likely just seize the asset demolish it and use the land for whatever would give them the best return.

What's the point in that ?

I.m interested in what the RL.s supposed alternative plan is if the Stadium there goes tits up is ? As no doubt, as it was last time the plan will be to play Scotlands games there, I wonder if they're considering hiring a ground thats 20 miles nearer to Scotland ?
Last edit: 09 Apr 2019 16:29 by NORTHERNSOUL.
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09 Apr 2019 17:20 #52 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic New Workington stadium at last

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Laffy wrote: We seem to live in an age when nobody elected to represent the people is prepared to make a decision for fear of reprisals.

The town desperately needs this facility-get on with it


Yes, it does but not when it's going to cost the towns sports clubs and local businesses nearly 100m for a stadium thats only going to cost 25 to build.

The council should just borrow the money at a low interest rate from the PWB and then charge the tenants rents that would give them a return of say 100k a year over and above the loan and interest repayments so as to give the areas council taxpayers a return on their investment to compensate for the risk.

Clearly what theyre doing supposedly stops their exposure should the worst happen and the clubs fold and BNFL [ or whatever theyre calling themselves this week ] decide they no longer need the office space and theyre left with nobody to pay the rents Well i.ve got news for you Allerdale the operating company would probrably just put itself into administration meaning the insurers or finaciers would likely just seize the asset demolish it and use the land for whatever would give them the best return.

What's the point in that ?

I.m interested in what the RL.s supposed alternative plan is if the Stadium there goes tits up is ? As no doubt, as it was last time the plan will be to play Scotlands games there, I wonder if they're considering hiring a ground thats 20 miles nearer to Scotland ?


Frenchfields?

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09 Apr 2019 18:30 - 09 Apr 2019 18:35 #53 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic New Workington stadium at last
Didn’t one of the big RL Teams not get a game in the WC? Ready made replacement...

Edit: Was it not Wigan?

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!
Last edit: 09 Apr 2019 18:35 by CCU.

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09 Apr 2019 18:49 #54 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
This technique of leveraging the council covenant at a very low rate of interest and selling the income stream to a pension fund is entirely commercial and very popular-essentially borrowing money around 2.5pc .The key is the developer does all the work on the scheme so as long as the controls are in place, and there is no heavy profiteering, then it’s a very clever route.

Ignoring the money,West Cumbria needs a break-every time I go back,I’m struck by how it is being left behind.Just needs a bit of vision and some drive to get this done.

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09 Apr 2019 18:52 #55 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic New Workington stadium at last
A new stadium would make it possible and exciting for some tycoon to take them over and rise up the leagues.

Do you not fancy it Laffy :)
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09 Apr 2019 19:10 #56 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic New Workington stadium at last

CCU wrote: Didn’t one of the big RL Teams not get a game in the WC? Ready made replacement...

Edit: Was it not Wigan?


Correct.

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09 Apr 2019 22:08 #57 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
The deal is on the table-I doubt anyone could better it and I don’t have a pot to piss in remember
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10 Apr 2019 18:44 - 10 Apr 2019 19:02 #58 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic New Workington stadium at last

Laffy wrote: This technique of leveraging the council covenant at a very low rate of interest and selling the income stream to a pension fund is entirely commercial and very popular-essentially borrowing money around 2.5pc .The key is the developer does all the work on the scheme so as long as the controls are in place, and there is no heavy profiteering, then it’s a very clever route.

Ignoring the money,West Cumbria needs a break-every time I go back,I’m struck by how it is being left behind.Just needs a bit of vision and some drive to get this done.


Andrew if theres no heavy profiting where the [censored] is the other 70 million going.

And no need to bring in anybody you simply award to contract to the firm who used to be known as Barr Construction they design and develop the stadium and when its finished and ready for occupation they set up a local management company to run it on a day to day basis you can then either buy the concession rights from them or let them have them to reduce their management charges. They built loads of stands in Scotland on that basis as well as the 3 sided development at Plymouth and the redevelopment of Ashton Gate. During that, they were taken over and became part of a bigger group.

At the time Knighton was putting plans in place for the redevelopment of BP they were strongly rumoured to be the company involved and I believe it may even have been their architects who drew up the east stand plans.

Back to Workington i.d say the best way to make it work would be the council to Borrow the money via the PWB Then get the nuclear lot to stump up 25 years rent in advance [ for a substantial discount ] as the NHS did to build the invincibles stand at Nob End [ After all the cost went up 10 million to provide the office accommodation for them ] Then throw in the various grant money RLWC SIT etc etc and you should be able to bring whats owed down to about 10 million which over 25 years should be just about serviceable.
Last edit: 10 Apr 2019 19:02 by NORTHERNSOUL.

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10 Apr 2019 19:04 #59 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
There was a company floating around 20 years ago called Stadia Management-they built hotels and such like around stadium.I showed them the door at Motherwell because it was total baloney-pointing out a football stadium is probably only used for big matches and therefore hotels 30 times a year.As someone who has built and sold a lot of hotels,you build them where there is demand-not because you have a spare acre of land.

The lease deal works on the basis of a very long lease-typically 50 years plus,but usually 100 years.The lease carries a rent of 2.5pc pa and normally inflation proofed.Interest over 100 years can add up of course but the arrangements are designed to allow the creator of the lease eg the Council,to sell the forward income for an up front payment-say 40x initial rent.That money is used to build out the assets sitting on top of the lease.

You then plan/hope to rent the built assets and use that rent to mitigate the annual 2.5pc interest

The arrangements only work because long term interest rates are historically very low.

Those looking at the cost of all this should look at how the interest cost is being spread over the life of the lease-and to ensure you aren’t getting your trousers taken down, make sure you share in any profit generated by the developer.

I think this works for West Cumbria-and they should get on with it before interest rates move.As we know from CUFC,the dithering around the new stadium with the retail park killed it-you wouldn’t touch retail with a cattle prod at the moment so that door closed.

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10 Apr 2019 19:22 #60 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic New Workington stadium at last

Laffy wrote: The deal is on the table-I doubt anyone could better it and I don’t have a pot to piss in remember


Given the choice between Carlisle, all the debt/pgs and Workington, with their new stadium there’s only one choice for any astute businessman.

The only problem will be whether Workington could get the crowds.

At least we’re not Stockport

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10 Apr 2019 20:35 #61 by pacirv
Replied by pacirv on topic New Workington stadium at last
At least Workington have a definite plan and a way forward kind of puts us to shame.
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10 Apr 2019 20:39 #62 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic New Workington stadium at last

pacirv wrote: At least Workington have a definite plan and a way forward kind of puts us to shame.


Well if we had a plan that involved paying 95 million quid for something that only costs 25 I would imagine there would be more than me not happy about it.
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10 Apr 2019 22:04 #63 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
I don’t think you have read my note Barry-If you rent something infinitum,then the cost of ownership always goes up.Im sure the Council would prefer an annual charge rather than writing a cheque for£25m

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10 Apr 2019 22:14 #64 by BelleVueBoy
Replied by BelleVueBoy on topic New Workington stadium at last
I must have just entered a parallel universe where the debacle of PFI never happened... but maybe it never got to West Cumbria. It certainly got to Carlisle where the hospital is still trying to sort out the sh**e. Whilst originally a child of New Labout it was adopted by the Tories and even they have said no more. It is a form of madness.

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11 Apr 2019 04:00 #65 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic New Workington stadium at last

Laffy wrote: I don’t think you have read my note Barry-If you rent something infinitum,then the cost of ownership always goes up.Im sure the Council would prefer an annual charge rather than writing a cheque for£25m


Not sure where you think the council have to write a 25 million cheque for anything ?

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11 Apr 2019 06:57 #66 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
Somebody has to pay for the stadium Barry-it won’t be the Council of course.

As for this being PFI by another guise,I suppose it is save that the rate of interest would be 2.5pc against something around 6/7pc in the Blair days and crucially without all those dirty management contracts around it

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25 Apr 2019 10:35 #67 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic New Workington stadium at last
Nice write up today in the times and star

www.timesandstar.co.uk/news/17595325.sta...nessman/?ref=mr&lp=1

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02 May 2019 21:29 #68 by Zebby
Replied by Zebby on topic New Workington stadium at last
I see Whitehaven RL have revealed plans for a 6 million pound improvements of the recreation ground,

Good luck I hope it comes off for them

Be just and fear not

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03 May 2019 07:30 #69 by Moylesey
Replied by Moylesey on topic New Workington stadium at last
Be interesting to see if this survives last nights election results in Allerdale...

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03 May 2019 08:14 #70 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic New Workington stadium at last

Moylesey wrote: Be interesting to see if this survives last nights election results in Allerdale...


Little mention on main N&S article about Allerdale Election, nothing major...

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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03 May 2019 08:20 #71 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
There was a Labour guy on BBC news this morning being cross examined by the BBC presenter Charlie -he was asked to explain why 80pc of his party members want to Remain, yet party policy is to Brexit.

If ever there was an interview which highlighted how out of touch and unrepresentative these muppets are, this was it-and I include Tories too as frankly I don’t know what the Tories represent anymore either.

The fact is we are being led across the whole political spectrum by sheep-too scared to be daring, to take risks, on the basis it’s career threatening.Coupled with a low average IQ and lack of leadership, our political class are a shambles.

There is hope-that speedster lying MP has been voted out by people power.It needed 6000 people to vote to throw her out by the petition-some 20000 turned out and good on them.

Do I think this stadium will be built?Probably not because of mealy mouthed politicians who cannot make a decision because if their ineptitude and fear of losing their power base.This stadium would give West Cumbria a massive injection of confidence at every level-its not just about the cost of 50 year money

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03 May 2019 09:29 #72 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic New Workington stadium at last
Think the prob now is that the leader of the allerdale cons group is from Warnell which is a lot nearer Carlisle than it is Workington. He thinks he should be in charge although I’m not sure why it wouldn’t be a independant as they got the most seats. I think he’s prob less inclined to build the stadium as opposed to the old labour ones who were in Workington wards.

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03 May 2019 09:47 #73 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
The question should be’ do we want to build something to be proud of in West Cumbria and for long standing enjoyment or plod along with a decaying stadium?

If there is a cheaper way of financing the asset,I would like to see it.Its alright building new roads into the county but if there is nothing there to travel for, no point.Its the same with schools-there is no way high value companies and jobs will move to West Cumbria without decent schools to support the high value jobs.

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03 May 2019 09:52 #74 by nobbyblue
Replied by nobbyblue on topic New Workington stadium at last
I haven't been following this very closely but it's going to cost 95 million over 50 years and they are covering this by renting office space?

2 million a year rental income?

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03 May 2019 12:56 #75 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
I haven’t seen the detail behind the passing rent but if you can borrow money and lock in long term at current rates, it’s probably the best way to finance this.Of course, it’s not just about the money either-it’s about building a community asset for all for the long term

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03 May 2019 14:39 #76 by Moylesey
Replied by Moylesey on topic New Workington stadium at last

CCU wrote:

Moylesey wrote: Be interesting to see if this survives last nights election results in Allerdale...


Little mention on main N&S article about Allerdale Election, nothing major...


Labour whose project this was have dropped from 27 seats to 14 and the Tories are the largest single party on 15 thus the Tory leader assuming he’ll be the new leader.

Any Tory or Labour coalition with 20 independents will be challenging to say the least.

The Tory’s are saying they’re not necessarily against the stadium but...

Interesting times - just not in a good way.

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29 May 2019 10:41 #77 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic New Workington stadium at last

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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29 May 2019 11:10 #78 by markredfox73
Replied by markredfox73 on topic New Workington stadium at last
Its becoming a farce of the highest order with various issues on what the costs are.The long benefits will be bigger regardless of the costs. We have Reds already on the move to Derwent park...pitch being made bigger.

Plan B? If this doesnt come off..well it be called apathy reigns ......sound familiar.

Speedway aint coming back so get a 4G pitch...bring both ends in at Derwent Park..make it more of a stadium for both...a cheaper option perhaps ? I fear Reds getting shafted with Borough park regardless


Either way change needs to happen
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29 May 2019 11:59 #79 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic New Workington stadium at last

markredfox73 wrote: I fear Reds getting shafted with Borough park regardless


This. Now the Speedway has packed up, you can see League and Reds being told to share Derwent Park, then all of a sudden a new development appears on the Borough Park site...

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29 May 2019 14:06 #80 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
As always, politicians look at the short term.This is a fantastic opportunity for West Cumbria with long lasting benefits for the community.

There appears no plan B other than fixing a decaying building-hang on, isn’t that the problem with BP with a six figure dilapidation charge every year and a stadium used a maximum of 30 times per annum?

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29 May 2019 14:10 #81 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic New Workington stadium at last
Fixing two dilapidated stadiums. Seems a no brainer to me.

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29 May 2019 15:28 #82 by bruntonpete
Replied by bruntonpete on topic New Workington stadium at last
Carlisle council should be looking at their dithering and get their own act together and learn from any mistakes to get our own leisure village and stadium plan up and running. In this time of uncertainty, threats to jobs, Brexit etc, it would be a real shot in the arm for the city and surrounding area. It isn't too late if they have a desire and appetite to go for it. Call it the EWM stadium for all I care if they are prepared to get on board and speed up the process.
If was left up to our board, they will end up sharing with the rugby club next door, erect a temporary stand and a few bus shelters for the disabled.
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29 May 2019 22:46 #83 by Flatcap
Replied by Flatcap on topic New Workington stadium at last
A bit like this you mean?
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03 Jun 2019 14:34 #84 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic New Workington stadium at last

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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03 Jun 2019 17:00 #85 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
Absolutely pathetic-a chance to improve West Cumbria as it’s on a plate and they can’t stop dithering.Another kick in the teeth
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03 Jun 2019 23:22 #86 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic New Workington stadium at last
That’s Tory councillors for you Laffy. My local one is good at putting a few flower beds in and making the village look a bit nicer but that isn’t gonna attract any money into the area.

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04 Jun 2019 00:16 #87 by Piglet_Phoenix
Replied by Piglet_Phoenix on topic New Workington stadium at last
We should let Reds share Brunton Park.

In fact, we could make them our de facto reserve / feeder team.

They'd probably get bigger crowds playing in Carlisle.

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04 Jun 2019 14:44 #88 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
Let’s all move to St James Park then.

West Cumbria needs a shot in the arm-this is a great chance and it will be screwed by a few jobsworth who are happy to criticise but not make a decision.
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10 Jun 2019 09:22 #89 by RedArrow**
Replied by RedArrow** on topic New Workington stadium at last
The new Alllerdale council executive will make there decision on the Stadium on Friday 28th June .At the moment they are scrutinizing all the information they have gathered. It's worrying times as this once in a lifetime project is hanging by a thread.

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15 Jun 2019 19:43 #90 by Flatcap

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15 Jun 2019 19:49 #91 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic New Workington stadium at last
Thought it was a done deal and going ahead....They're looking for folk to sign a petition on Twitter..

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15 Jun 2019 20:15 #92 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic New Workington stadium at last

seesaw50 wrote: Thought it was a done deal and going ahead....They're looking for folk to sign a petition on Twitter..


It was until Labour lost control at the local council elections last month.

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15 Jun 2019 20:53 #93 by flumeblue
Replied by flumeblue on topic New Workington stadium at last
The trouble for our County is that so many who live here are so parochial.
Is Distington in Copeland or Allerdale?
Is Thursby in Allerdale or Carlisle?
When I was in College in Manchester many didn’t know where Carlisle was and those that did said I went past there on the Motorway or Train when I went to Scotland.
As for Workington or Whitehaven? where?
It’s blindingly obvious, to those outside the area, that Whitehaven & Workington need to work together if they 21st Century facilities.

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15 Jun 2019 21:56 #94 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic New Workington stadium at last
New stadium = Grandiose scheme put forward by Labour...checked back when they lose control

Sands extension in Carlisle = Grandiose scheme put forward by Labour....checked back when they lose control

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15 Jun 2019 22:29 #95 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
It will a bloody disgrace if this doesn’t go ahead-a chance to build a catalyst for all sorts of exciting things and they piss about debating it because of local politics.

So many decision makers in the county are stuck in Victorian Britain-big shots in a very small pond.

This is a fantastic opportunity for the whole community and have these so called politicians figured out what they will do if they blow the scheme?
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15 Jun 2019 23:03 #96 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic New Workington stadium at last

seesaw50 wrote: New stadium = Grandiose scheme put forward by Labour...checked back when they lose control

Sands extension in Carlisle = Grandiose scheme put forward by Labour....checked back when they lose control


The nearby sports centre has been successful as well and also prob wouldn't have gone ahead but for the labour council.

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15 Jun 2019 23:44 #97 by markredfox73
Replied by markredfox73 on topic New Workington stadium at last
It has to go ahead... as you say Dancingbear the sport centre has been a big success.with new facilities and activities has brought in some excellent footfall plus its in the middle of town more or less.. the issue folk had was that they were critical of the location at the time..and kind of still is with regards to potential flooding in future..but nobody was against it being built as new facilities were needed. With a new ground there and possibly travelodge/Marstons pub/drive thru facilities well it can only be seen as positive ...plus now the train links have improved to compliment the area.

This must happen at all costs...the march proved that folk want it to go ahead..Allerdale needs updated facilities not run down shitholes..wouldnt it be fantastic for both Reds and Town to create momentum on the back of this..

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16 Jun 2019 09:17 #98 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic New Workington stadium at last
By no one Mark you maybe don’t know the independent councillors from Moorclose certainly were against it. The wanted it built up there.

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16 Jun 2019 15:02 - 17 Jun 2019 17:35 #99 by Wukkie
Replied by Wukkie on topic New Workington stadium at last
Well Reds have nowhere to go but the Rugby ground as Borough Park has been condemned apparently with new health&safety regulations and the bulldozers are about to move in this summer whether a new ground is being built or not.

Apparently they've only dodged the bullet of a further relegation last week due to having to confirm where they'd play. Considering the council owned Borough Park to let it get in that state in the first place tells you all you need to know.
Last edit: 17 Jun 2019 17:35 by Wukkie.

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16 Jun 2019 16:05 #100 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic New Workington stadium at last
I would love to debate the pros and cons with those making the decision-because I don’t believe they have a plan B.A chance to make a big difference to the whole community or reject for fear of recrimination.It is the perfect time to finance something like this-long term interest rates at all time low.

So many councils have pissed money away by buying shopping centres of late-and just at the wrong time to go into that sector.This is different and much needed
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