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  1. yoonited
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  3. 24-01-2020 15:33
Cobra meeting held to discuss plan of action if it comes to the UK (assuming it hasn't already). This is another consequence of globalisation and mass immigration, people with diseases from all over the world travelling all over the world, what could possibly go wrong?
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There are some illuminating stats on A&E which will explain why care is being pushed out of the hospitals wherever possible

-the cost of an overnight stay is about £13k per night
-your average life expectancy falls to something like 18 months if you are over 60 from memory

We need to get away from the NHS being amazingly efficient-it’s not.It needs a new model run by professionals.You wouldn’t want a car mechanic doing brain surgery for example


The NHS is excellent but management must improve - but not through the private sector


So how ?


I am not an expert... but looking at how to replicate the French approach may be worthwhile. 70 % social and 30 % insurance.
  1. 14-01-2021 19:39
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  3. # 1
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  1. 14-01-2021 20:47
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2016/feb/08/how-much-have-i-cost-the-nhs

Cost of treatment per ailment 2016 - can’t find a newer one.

Overnight stay about £400 just to sleep over and vitals checked.

I bet a few on here have paid more than that but NOT in a hospital!
  1. 14-01-2021 23:42
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2016/feb/08/how-much-have-i-cost-the-nhs

Cost of treatment per ailment 2016 - can’t find a newer one.

Overnight stay about £400 just to sleep over and vitals checked.

I bet a few on here have paid more than that but NOT in a hospital!


400 baht maybe
  1. 14-01-2021 23:54
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  3. # 4
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They are using the stick now rather than the carrot to get Londoners to follow the rules. If you catch it and need hospital you will be sent to Newcastle. That'll get them wearing masks on the mean streets of Brixton.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/14/struggling-london-hospitals-sending-covid-patients-to-newcastle
  1. 15-01-2021 02:36
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  3. # 5
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There are some illuminating stats on A&E which will explain why care is being pushed out of the hospitals wherever possible

-the cost of an overnight stay is about £13k per night
-your average life expectancy falls to something like 18 months if you are over 60 from memory

We need to get away from the NHS being amazingly efficient-it’s not.It needs a new model run by professionals.You wouldn’t want a car mechanic doing brain surgery for example


The NHS is excellent but management must improve - but not through the private sector


So how ?


I am not an expert... but looking at how to replicate the French approach may be worthwhile. 70 % social and 30 % insurance.



Like the Krauts, this leads to a two tier system, as the insurance (private) is a choice for the individual in how much they choose to pay.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2010/02/heal-f03.html
  1. 15-01-2021 09:40
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Krauts,its not the 70s anymore.
  1. 15-01-2021 12:34
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  3. # 7
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Krauts,its not the 70s anymore.



If it's good enough for Scrabble, it's good enough for me.

Describing the French as Frogs, is a short version of Frog Eater.

Krauts for the Krauts is the same, a shortend version of sauerkraut.

Your maybe confused with the word ' Huns '
  1. 15-01-2021 13:29
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"The NHS claims that around 9million patients are sent home from A&E every year having just received advice that could be received from a pharmacist or calling 111, the equivalent of £1.4 billion (assuming they didn’t attend A&E in an ambulance). That’s enough to train nearly 2,000 (1,931) GPs or 20,000 nurses."


"Ambulances called to one home more than 3,500 TIMES in a year – with 99 per cent of calls needing no hospital treatment"

"Paramedics were phoned from the home in Barnet, North London, 3,594 times in 2016/17 - almost 10 times a day."


I’ve dialled 111 a few times, every time they’ve told me to go to A&E. The look in the staff’s faces when l said ‘111 told me to come’ said that l didnt need to be there, and it happens a lot.
  1. 15-01-2021 13:27
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Just when you thought you weren't living in North Korea. 4 German tourists were forced to isolate in Portugal after 1 tested positive for covid on arrival. None had any symptoms. The 4 tourists sued the Portuguese Government on the grounds that PCR tests are not a reliable test for covid. The judges considered gold star international pieces of research including work from Oxford University, showing that up to 97% of positive tests can be false. On the basis of the scientific evidence the judges ruled that the tests were not fit for purpose.
The Portuguese judiciary is now considering whether to censure the judges for coming to their finding.

https://www.portugalresident.com/portuguese-judges-who-queried-reliability-of-covid-tests-at-risk-of-being-disciplined/

In other news NZ doctors concerned that NZ is being used as an advert for lockdown have taken to youtube to underline the principle that the numbers being quoted are mince. The rather attractive Dr Sam Bailey explains
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2aR2UInnug&ab_channel=Dr.SamBailey

Of the 3m people denied access to financial support when lockdown was imposed only 20% have received benefits. Exclude, the charity lobbying for them, has now introduced compulsory staff suicide training as so many clients have topped themselves. But it's all about public health

war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
  1. 16-01-2021 14:20
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  3. # 10
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Just when you thought you weren't living in North Korea. 4 German tourists were forced to isolate in Portugal after 1 tested positive for covid on arrival. None had any symptoms. The 4 tourists sued the Portuguese Government on the grounds that PCR tests are not a reliable test for covid. The judges considered gold star international pieces of research including work from Oxford University, showing that up to 97% of positive tests can be false. On the basis of the scientific evidence the judges ruled that the tests were not fit for purpose.
The Portuguese judiciary is now considering whether to censure the judges for coming to their finding.

https://www.portugalresident.com/portuguese-judges-who-queried-reliability-of-covid-tests-at-risk-of-being-disciplined/
h


Yeh, they're getting disciplined because their ruling was shit because they didn't understand what they were talking about. You and mullen posted the original ruling last year ago and it was provable bollocks then

https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-pcr-tests-irish-video-5304097-Dec2020/


PS "gold star international pieces of research"
There's no such rating system
  1. 16-01-2021 15:08
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  3. # 11
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Ah, the rather attractive Dr Sam Bailey, the one slammed by other NZ doctors and as one put it

“What I will say is just because someone is medically qualified doesn’t necessarily mean they know anything about diagnostic testing and the intricacies of quantitative PCR”
  1. 16-01-2021 23:15
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  1. 16-01-2021 23:56
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Every 30 seconds somebody is admitted to hospital in the UK with Covid according to Sir Simon Stephens chief executive of NHS on the Andrew Marr show.

A quarter of those being hospitalised are under 55 which is worrying.
  1. 17-01-2021 10:00
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Yes, Oxford University know nothing about anything, as do Stamford, about pcr tests. Compared to the Portuguese judiciary.

So Britain is 189th out of 195 countries in the world for excess deaths. As everyone thinks that is an excellent achievement what have been the particular highs and success factors that have Christened us plague island? Who has a best of, of winner strategies?
  1. 17-01-2021 10:02
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Every 30 seconds somebody is admitted to hospital in the UK with Covid according to Sir Simon Stephens chief executive of NHS on the Andrew Marr show.

A quarter of those being hospitalised are under 55 which is worrying.


With covid is not the same as because of covid. You could have a broken leg but also have covid. A kid in Glasgow was stabbed, covid death..

The worrying thing should be people with cancer and heart problems who can't get treatment. All justified by fake statistics. All the countries that had no lock down have better stats than Britain, period.
  1. 17-01-2021 10:37
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It is probably true that if they didn’t have Covid when they went in they soon will have! :(
  1. 17-01-2021 10:46
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The worrying thing should be people with cancer and heart problems who can't get treatment. All justified by fake statistics. All the countries that had no lock down have better stats than Britain, period.

Sweden???
  1. 17-01-2021 11:48
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  3. # 19
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Yes, Oxford University know nothing about anything, as do Stamford, about pcr tests. Compared to the Portuguese judiciary.

So Britain is 189th out of 195 countries in the world for excess deaths. As everyone thinks that is an excellent achievement what have been the particular highs and success factors that have Christened us plague island? Who has a best of, of winner strategies?


...and why do you think we have so many deaths ?


There is no doubt we are high, however, like most things there is a reason.

So, Marko, let's stick with science and facts, why do we have so many deaths ?
  1. 17-01-2021 12:15
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  3. # 20
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Yes, Oxford University know nothing about anything, as do Stamford, about pcr tests. Compared to the Portuguese judiciary.

So Britain is 189th out of 195 countries in the world for excess deaths. As everyone thinks that is an excellent achievement what have been the particular highs and success factors that have Christened us plague island? Who has a best of, of winner strategies?


...and why do you think we have so many deaths ?


There is no doubt we are high, however, like most things there is a reason.

So, Marko, let's stick with science and facts, why do we have so many deaths ?


Lets see if he can reply without links, quotes or mentioning ‘Boris’ ‘Tories’ ‘Westmonster’ ‘Scotland doing better then England’
  1. 17-01-2021 12:18
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Wonder why all these lot weren't arrested for Breaking lockdown rules, didn't see this on the national news ?

https://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/19011884.asylum-seekers-stage-second-protest-penally-camp-conditions/
  1. 17-01-2021 13:07
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More evidence coming out to say that people who worked at the Wuhan lab had Covid in Autumn 2019.

Hopefully it’ll all come out.
  1. 17-01-2021 16:56
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  3. # 23
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Yes, Oxford University know nothing about anything, as do Stamford, about pcr tests. Compared to the Portuguese judiciary.

So Britain is 189th out of 195 countries in the world for excess deaths. As everyone thinks that is an excellent achievement what have been the particular highs and success factors that have Christened us plague island? Who has a best of, of winner strategies?


...and why do you think we have so many deaths ?


There is no doubt we are high, however, like most things there is a reason.

So, Marko, let's stick with science and facts, why do we have so many deaths ?


Sweden has a third less excess deaths than Britain, per million. The very worst country that had no lockdown has hugely outperformed Britain. I thought we'd done this?


Three key factors
1) Deaths caused by the lockdown, particularly heart disease and cancer sufferers who didn't get treatment. Loneliness and isolation is the second biggest killer of the old.
2) Covid has had an effect as well. The figure submitted by the UK Government using the standard system (so how they report all other illnesses) I can't tell you for confidentiality reasons but an educated guess from adding up all the ONS press releases would put it at 13722. So that's the people who have actually died of covid, perhaps.
3) The run down of the NHS due to funding cuts and changes in practice due to the new protocols. 50000 vacancies and a bed reduction of 15% take their toll.

So 66000 of the 80000 were potentially avoidable by not locking down and properly funding the NHS- which would have been hugely cheaper than furloughing x million people.

There are lots of definitions of Poverty in Britain, but it is often assumed to be 60% of median income, that means about £1000 a month or less for 2 adults and 2 children. For people who have slipped into poverty because of furlough or unemployment they have just had 10 years lopped off their life expectancy according to the ONS. Scotland has lost 5m life years. And those people won't live long enough to get covid.

I don't think Scotland is better than England. Lockdown has allowed Johnson to steal, and every day is a small step closer to NS being the first President of an Independent Scotland. The SNP wouldn't criticise Johnson for record deaths? Really, not 1 word? Sadly a few pensioner deaths are an acceptable loss for both financial and political gain.

Every 4 star piece of research I've seen shows the same, lockdown saves a small number of lives from respiratory illness including covid but is catastrophic for other illnesses and for the poor.
Assessing Mandatory Stay‐at‐Home and Business Closure Effects on the Spread of COVID‐19
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13484?fbclid=IwAR04AdSev0bd5SGP-P8eKXqbWq_vuLSVb8k4gqA8AqOhTVLU6EtjZh15wKM

I think having had lots of rebuttals, when is someone going to say why Britain has done well compared to Japan, Korea, Belarus etc. It's a common held theory, why?
  1. 17-01-2021 17:06
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To Mr Markovic.

https://sputniknews.com/europe/202012151081462489-sweden-sees-highest-excess-mortality-since-spanish-flu/

With Covid-19 being the third-highest cause of death behind cancer and cardiovascular diseases, Sweden is struggling to contain the epidemic and only recently began to tighten its standalone approach.

In November 2020, Sweden, one of the the European countries worst hit by the coronavirus, has seen excess mortality of 10 percent, according to Statistics Sweden.

All in all, a record 8,088 Swedes died in November.

“It is the highest number of deaths measured during the month of November since 1918, which was the year when the Spanish flu broke out. Then, 16,600 people died in November. The highest record in the 2000s was in 2002, when 7,720 deaths were registered in November,” Tomas Johansson of Statistics Sweden said in a statement.

Between 12 and 27 November this year, more people died every day than between the corresponding period in the years 2015–2019. However, the excess mortality is mostly limited to the age group 65 and older, as the overall levels are below their spring peak: between 29 March and May 1, at least 300 people died every day.

“Since the turn of the year, the number of deaths had been at normal levels for the period, but in November began to rise significantly,” Tomas Johansson explained.

Meanwhile, a Norwegian study by the University of Tromsø has also concluded that Sweden's strategy against Covid-19 has resulted in significant excess mortality and tens of thousands of lost life-years.

According to the Norwegian scientists, Sweden's 611 Covid-19 deaths per million inhabitants (as opposed to Norway's 53 per million) led to a “broad wave of mortality”. The researchers found 45,850 lost life years in Sweden between July 2019 and July 2020, which has “no other explanation than the corona-related deaths”, according to mathematics professor Martin Rypdal. According to newspaper Dagbladet, Rypdal concluded that Norway's track-down-and-isolate strategy is preferable to Sweden's lassez-faire one.

Sweden, which since the start of the pandemic has been in a largely business-as-usual mode with no lockdowns, no mask obligations, and mostly advisory measures, has been criticised for its failure to properly address the health crisis, among others, by the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), which gave the country bottom-tier grades in its recent measurement of European countries.
  1. 17-01-2021 17:14
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You are quoting Sputnik at me? I didn't expect that.

So if we cut out all the emotive rhetoric and the Norwegians patting themselves on the back what do we find? They've taken 1 month, November, but neatly cut off before the spike fell back at the end of November. They have omitted all the months of the year when deaths were below the 5-year average, which was most of them.

Now lets look at According to the Norwegian scientists, Sweden's 611 Covid-19 deaths per million inhabitants

If we look at deaths per million for the first half of the year we see at 30/6 Swedish deaths were 465 per million, meaning the rate has slowed dramatically in the second half of the year. So Sweden's policy is working? Deaths per million over time are falling sharply, unlike Britain, though Britain has fallen as well. Britain of course at 30/6 had deaths per million of 598 so Sweden again maintaining its lead over Britain with its policy of no lock down.

Then again England registered 1003 excess deaths per million for the full year, that is 64% greater than Sweden. Once again other than railing against Sweden for its stupid, dangerous no lockdown policy when you ignore the journalistic licence and look at the facts included we see that excess deaths are about 50% more prevalent in Britain, something which has been illustrated numerous times already.

Ironically enough lockdown in Russia ends today. All shops, bars, restaurants and schools open tomorrow. The cost to society of lockdown is greater than the cost of covid the great one has decreed.

I get, good people are hearing, stay home, wash your hands, it's all your health needs, save lives. And its kind of true, lockdown does save some lives, but it condemns many more to death. Remember as well you have chosen Sweden, the worst by a long way of the no lockdown countries, try it again with Japan, Korea and Belarus. Not even on the same page
  1. 17-01-2021 19:42
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  3. # 26
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I get, good people are hearing, stay home, wash your hands, it's all your health needs, save lives. And its kind of true, lockdown does save some lives, but it condemns many more to death. Remember as well you have chosen Sweden, the worst by a long way of the no lockdown countries, try it again with Japan, Korea and Belarus. Not even on the same page


https://charter97.org/en/news/2021/1/15/407672/

Director of the EAST analytical center Andrei Yeliseyeu wrote on Facebook about how the death toll from coronavirus in Belarus in 2020 can be calculated.

Actually, the expert has already counted and stated that the death rate in the country over the past year was at least 20 thousand people:

“Government agencies have classified all statistics on mortality and population size and are hesitant to report the horrifying number of deaths from coronavirus due to “the world's most successful approach”. Let's use three methods to estimate the real mortality from the coronavirus.

Analysis of the mortality of medical workers. Since the overall mortality rate is many times underestimated, and the death of medical workers is not easy to hide, Belarus has an abnormally high proportion of deaths among doctors.

According to official statistics, as of January 1, 2021, 1,424 people died of the coronavirus in Belarus. Doctor of Medical Sciences Sviatlana Sarokina collected (the Ministry of Health conceals such statistics) the list of the names of health workers who died during the epidemics - 103 people at the beginning of the year, and it was clearly incomplete - there are many additions in comments from caring people (already 143). It follows that doctors allegedly accounted for up to 8-10% (and more, depending on the completeness of the list) of the dead. In many countries this figure is usually less than 1%.

For example, according to the Ministry of Health of Poland, 137 health workers died of the coronavirus last year. In total, more than 28 thousand people died of coronavirus, according to Polish statistics, in 2020. Even if we take into account the worst situation with PPE in Belarus, the mortality rate of doctors cannot exceed the Polish figure by 15-20 times. Comparison of the number of deaths of doctors in Belarus and Poland suggests that the total number of deaths from coronavirus is unlikely to be very much inferior to the general Polish indicator, that is, it probably exceeds 20 thousand.

Based on the approximate scale of underestimation of mortality (the method is rude, but justified). In April-June, through the UN, the real excess mortality became known, which probably amounted to about 6,700 people. At the same time, 392 people officially died from the coronavirus at the end of June. That is, the statistics were underestimated by about 17 times. Let us assume that the scale of underestimation of mortality continued in the second half of the year.

Although the epidemic began to decline in the 3rd quarter, its consequences in the 4th quarter were clearly the most serious. The mismanagers even set a new bar. If in the first wave the number of new daily cases was not higher than 1,000, then in the second wave the bar was raised to 2,000 (in reality it could have been 10 thousand or more). The maximum allowable number of drawn daily deaths was raised from 7 people in the first wave to 10 in the second. So, we multiply the official number of deaths by January 1 (1.424) by 17, which gives a figure in the region of 24 thousand.

Extrapolation of mortality data from Mahiliou. As it surfaced due to an oversight of local executive committee members, the mortality rate in January-November 2020 there exceeded the average for the entire (!) 2019 by 16%. Taking into account December (≈4700 / 3766), excess mortality in the city for the whole year probably exceeded the “normal” indicator by 25% or more.

Let's say Mahiliou suffered from the epidemic to the same extent as the whole country on average (the Ministry of Health conceals regional data). We extrapolate the excess mortality (min. + 25%) in Mahiliou taking into account the countrywide mortality rate in 2019 (121 thousand people). This gives a figure of about 151 thousand people, that is, the difference is 30 thousand people.

In total, each of the three assessment methods indicates that the real number of deaths from coronavirus in Belarus last year was probably at least 20 thousand people, and possibly much more.
  1. 17-01-2021 21:36
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ccu
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and every day is a small step closer to NS being the first President of an Independent Scotland


More chance of me winning the Euromillions on Tuesday...
  1. 17-01-2021 23:34
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  3. # 28
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Marko, the reason every piece of research you see is arguing against lockdown is because you only ever look at stuff that's linked to on the lockdownsceptics site

And you don't have to guess how many deaths are of covid, the ons tells us week by week (2741 underlying out of 3144 total covid for just that week), so you don't need to pick a ludicrously low number to suit your argument, good eh?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending1january2021

Please don't crack on you know more than the ons due to some super secret info only you see, we know its bull :)
  1. 18-01-2021 00:40
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  3. # 29
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and every day is a small step closer to NS being the first President of an Independent Scotland


More chance of me winning the Euromillions on Tuesday...


Wondered what Barry was up to these days.
  1. 18-01-2021 12:05
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  3. # 30
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Yes, Oxford University know nothing about anything, as do Stamford, about pcr tests. Compared to the Portuguese judiciary.

So Britain is 189th out of 195 countries in the world for excess deaths. As everyone thinks that is an excellent achievement what have been the particular highs and success factors that have Christened us plague island? Who has a best of, of winner strategies?


...and why do you think we have so many deaths ?


There is no doubt we are high, however, like most things there is a reason.

So, Marko, let's stick with science and facts, why do we have so many deaths ?


Sweden has a third less excess deaths than Britain, per million. The very worst country that had no lockdown has hugely outperformed Britain. I thought we'd done this?


Three key factors
1) Deaths caused by the lockdown, particularly heart disease and cancer sufferers who didn't get treatment. Loneliness and isolation is the second biggest killer of the old.
2) Covid has had an effect as well. The figure submitted by the UK Government using the standard system (so how they report all other illnesses) I can't tell you for confidentiality reasons but an educated guess from adding up all the ONS press releases would put it at 13722. So that's the people who have actually died of covid, perhaps.
3) The run down of the NHS due to funding cuts and changes in practice due to the new protocols. 50000 vacancies and a bed reduction of 15% take their toll.

So 66000 of the 80000 were potentially avoidable by not locking down and properly funding the NHS- which would have been hugely cheaper than furloughing x million people.

There are lots of definitions of Poverty in Britain, but it is often assumed to be 60% of median income, that means about £1000 a month or less for 2 adults and 2 children. For people who have slipped into poverty because of furlough or unemployment they have just had 10 years lopped off their life expectancy according to the ONS. Scotland has lost 5m life years. And those people won't live long enough to get covid.

I don't think Scotland is better than England. Lockdown has allowed Johnson to steal, and every day is a small step closer to NS being the first President of an Independent Scotland. The SNP wouldn't criticise Johnson for record deaths? Really, not 1 word? Sadly a few pensioner deaths are an acceptable loss for both financial and political gain.

Every 4 star piece of research I've seen shows the same, lockdown saves a small number of lives from respiratory illness including covid but is catastrophic for other illnesses and for the poor.
Assessing Mandatory Stay‐at‐Home and Business Closure Effects on the Spread of COVID‐19
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13484?fbclid=IwAR04AdSev0bd5SGP-P8eKXqbWq_vuLSVb8k4gqA8AqOhTVLU6EtjZh15wKM

I think having had lots of rebuttals, when is someone going to say why Britain has done well compared to Japan, Korea, Belarus etc. It's a common held theory, why?


So, you're only real reason you can come up with is that maybe the NHS has not coped with it very well due to the reasons you have listed. ?

You stated "So Britain is 189th out of 195 countries in the world for excess deaths" However you then try a smoke and mirrors exercise in stats and political BS.

Is it fair to assume you have no idea whatsoever why the UK death rate is so high, other than the NHS cannot cope ?

Perhaps try Germany, and lets see why you think there death rate is now on a par with the UK, you know it's the same Germany you hailed as a bench mark earlier on and how it should be done, and how everyone compliments the German health system, and how it's much superior to the UK.
  1. 18-01-2021 13:47
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  3. # 31
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There will no end if this type of thing continues:

"Around 150 people were found inside a property at an illegal music event in Hertsmere.

The event was brought to officers' attention after reports were made of an unusually large number of vehicles parked near a property in Blanche Lane, South Mimms, Hertfordshire, on Wednesday evening (January 13).

Police were initially called at around 8pm and on arrival they discovered around 150 people inside a property before multiple fines were given out and alcohol and music equipment were seized.

DJ mixing decks and amplifiers were also taken from the event which took place when Covid-19 figures in Hertfordshire are at some of their highest levels since the pandemic began.

A Section 35 dispersal order was put in place and the gathering was quickly dispersed."
  1. 18-01-2021 15:02
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  3. # 32
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Yes, Oxford University know nothing about anything, as do Stamford, about pcr tests. Compared to the Portuguese judiciary.

So Britain is 189th out of 195 countries in the world for excess deaths. As everyone thinks that is an excellent achievement what have been the particular highs and success factors that have Christened us plague island? Who has a best of, of winner strategies?


...and why do you think we have so many deaths ?


There is no doubt we are high, however, like most things there is a reason.

So, Marko, let's stick with science and facts, why do we have so many deaths ?


Sweden has a third less excess deaths than Britain, per million. The very worst country that had no lockdown has hugely outperformed Britain. I thought we'd done this?


Three key factors
1) Deaths caused by the lockdown, particularly heart disease and cancer sufferers who didn't get treatment. Loneliness and isolation is the second biggest killer of the old.
2) Covid has had an effect as well. The figure submitted by the UK Government using the standard system (so how they report all other illnesses) I can't tell you for confidentiality reasons but an educated guess from adding up all the ONS press releases would put it at 13722. So that's the people who have actually died of covid, perhaps.
3) The run down of the NHS due to funding cuts and changes in practice due to the new protocols. 50000 vacancies and a bed reduction of 15% take their toll.

So 66000 of the 80000 were potentially avoidable by not locking down and properly funding the NHS- which would have been hugely cheaper than furloughing x million people.

There are lots of definitions of Poverty in Britain, but it is often assumed to be 60% of median income, that means about £1000 a month or less for 2 adults and 2 children. For people who have slipped into poverty because of furlough or unemployment they have just had 10 years lopped off their life expectancy according to the ONS. Scotland has lost 5m life years. And those people won't live long enough to get covid.

I don't think Scotland is better than England. Lockdown has allowed Johnson to steal, and every day is a small step closer to NS being the first President of an Independent Scotland. The SNP wouldn't criticise Johnson for record deaths? Really, not 1 word? Sadly a few pensioner deaths are an acceptable loss for both financial and political gain.

Every 4 star piece of research I've seen shows the same, lockdown saves a small number of lives from respiratory illness including covid but is catastrophic for other illnesses and for the poor.
Assessing Mandatory Stay‐at‐Home and Business Closure Effects on the Spread of COVID‐19
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13484?fbclid=IwAR04AdSev0bd5SGP-P8eKXqbWq_vuLSVb8k4gqA8AqOhTVLU6EtjZh15wKM

I think having had lots of rebuttals, when is someone going to say why Britain has done well compared to Japan, Korea, Belarus etc. It's a common held theory, why?


So, you're only real reason you can come up with is that maybe the NHS has not coped with it very well due to the reasons you have listed. ?

You stated "So Britain is 189th out of 195 countries in the world for excess deaths" However you then try a smoke and mirrors exercise in stats and political BS.

Is it fair to assume you have no idea whatsoever why the UK death rate is so high, other than the NHS cannot cope ?

Perhaps try Germany, and lets see why you think there death rate is now on a par with the UK, you know it's the same Germany you hailed as a bench mark earlier on and how it should be done, and how everyone compliments the German health system, and how it's much superior to the UK.


Perhaps you try looking at Googe SO. Britain is now the worst, number 195 from 195. If it were football based, and we were to play Andorra they would be favourites. Number last, worst bar none, worse than Belarus, South Sudan, Surinam, Lesotho, Canada, Russia, Tajikistan. See who is the best? We are the opposite, more dead, than anyone else. Margaret Thatcher, Winston Churchill, Richard the Lionheart, Biggles, your OAPs took a hell of a beating.

Did I make my point? The worst. So lockdown works?
France, a third of the deaths of Britain. My colleagues went skiing at Christmas, kids are in school, work open, bars and restaurants full.


https://www.facebook.com/DoubleDownNews/photos/a.1370218873063772/3641263262625977/
  1. 18-01-2021 15:47
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 33
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I read somewhere the the UK has more curly wurlys per head of population that any other nation.

Maybe that’s the reason we’re bottom of the table Marko-o? I bet those so called scientists have done precisely no research into this theory

Haters will say ‘correlation does not necessity equal causation’ but what do they know. Do you own research!
  1. 18-01-2021 16:32
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 34
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Perhaps you try looking at Googe SO. Britain is now the worst, number 195 from 195. If it were football based, and we were to play Andorra they would be favourites. Number last, worst bar none, worse than Belarus, South Sudan, Surinam, Lesotho, Canada, Russia, Tajikistan. See who is the best? We are the opposite, more dead, than anyone else. Margaret Thatcher, Winston Churchill, Richard the Lionheart, Biggles, your OAPs took a hell of a beating.

Did I make my point? The worst. So lockdown works?
France, a third of the deaths of Britain. My colleagues went skiing at Christmas, kids are in school, work open, bars and restaurants full.

The only point you make is that you think everyone else is an idiot. Your selective choice of an index of the last 7 days is a nonsense. Try seeing what has happened in total up until today https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

Yes the UK is high but not the highest. 1,333 / million. Your ex favourite country Sweden 1,033, Your new favourite Belarus 167. But of course you ignore the Polish reprot that questions the integrity of the official data.

Spain is not in your list. My son in law is a surgeon there ..... believe me Spain is in crisis.

Now why is the UK so high. Possibly lockdowns imposed too late; people not respecting the introduced measures ( what lockdown) and people like you who encourage, for whatever reason (reduced business opportunities???), people to continue socialising.

Lockdown works - look at decreasing incidence that will be followed in 10 days by reduced hospital patients and within 4 weeks reduced mortality. By then the benefits of vaccine will kick in with a trend towards herd immunity.
  1. 18-01-2021 16:47
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 35
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Yes, Oxford University know nothing about anything, as do Stamford, about pcr tests. Compared to the Portuguese judiciary.

So Britain is 189th out of 195 countries in the world for excess deaths. As everyone thinks that is an excellent achievement what have been the particular highs and success factors that have Christened us plague island? Who has a best of, of winner strategies?


...and why do you think we have so many deaths ?


There is no doubt we are high, however, like most things there is a reason.

So, Marko, let's stick with science and facts, why do we have so many deaths ?


Sweden has a third less excess deaths than Britain, per million. The very worst country that had no lockdown has hugely outperformed Britain. I thought we'd done this?


Three key factors
1) Deaths caused by the lockdown, particularly heart disease and cancer sufferers who didn't get treatment. Loneliness and isolation is the second biggest killer of the old.
2) Covid has had an effect as well. The figure submitted by the UK Government using the standard system (so how they report all other illnesses) I can't tell you for confidentiality reasons but an educated guess from adding up all the ONS press releases would put it at 13722. So that's the people who have actually died of covid, perhaps.
3) The run down of the NHS due to funding cuts and changes in practice due to the new protocols. 50000 vacancies and a bed reduction of 15% take their toll.

So 66000 of the 80000 were potentially avoidable by not locking down and properly funding the NHS- which would have been hugely cheaper than furloughing x million people.

There are lots of definitions of Poverty in Britain, but it is often assumed to be 60% of median income, that means about £1000 a month or less for 2 adults and 2 children. For people who have slipped into poverty because of furlough or unemployment they have just had 10 years lopped off their life expectancy according to the ONS. Scotland has lost 5m life years. And those people won't live long enough to get covid.

I don't think Scotland is better than England. Lockdown has allowed Johnson to steal, and every day is a small step closer to NS being the first President of an Independent Scotland. The SNP wouldn't criticise Johnson for record deaths? Really, not 1 word? Sadly a few pensioner deaths are an acceptable loss for both financial and political gain.

Every 4 star piece of research I've seen shows the same, lockdown saves a small number of lives from respiratory illness including covid but is catastrophic for other illnesses and for the poor.
Assessing Mandatory Stay‐at‐Home and Business Closure Effects on the Spread of COVID‐19
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13484?fbclid=IwAR04AdSev0bd5SGP-P8eKXqbWq_vuLSVb8k4gqA8AqOhTVLU6EtjZh15wKM

I think having had lots of rebuttals, when is someone going to say why Britain has done well compared to Japan, Korea, Belarus etc. It's a common held theory, why?


So, you're only real reason you can come up with is that maybe the NHS has not coped with it very well due to the reasons you have listed. ?

You stated "So Britain is 189th out of 195 countries in the world for excess deaths" However you then try a smoke and mirrors exercise in stats and political BS.

Is it fair to assume you have no idea whatsoever why the UK death rate is so high, other than the NHS cannot cope ?

Perhaps try Germany, and lets see why you think there death rate is now on a par with the UK, you know it's the same Germany you hailed as a bench mark earlier on and how it should be done, and how everyone compliments the German health system, and how it's much superior to the UK.


Perhaps you try looking at Googe SO. Britain is now the worst, number 195 from 195. If it were football based, and we were to play Andorra they would be favourites. Number last, worst bar none, worse than Belarus, South Sudan, Surinam, Lesotho, Canada, Russia, Tajikistan. See who is the best? We are the opposite, more dead, than anyone else. Margaret Thatcher, Winston Churchill, Richard the Lionheart, Biggles, your OAPs took a hell of a beating.

Did I make my point? The worst. So lockdown works?
France, a third of the deaths of Britain. My colleagues went skiing at Christmas, kids are in school, work open, bars and restaurants full.


https://www.facebook.com/DoubleDownNews/photos/a.1370218873063772/3641263262625977/



As expected, you have no idea whatsoever why our death rate appears to be high, so you add a load of fluff and statements that mean, well, nowt.

No idea all along, all you can do is try and criticize, and write an encyclopedia of meaningless comparisons without any scientific or factual evidence to support them, nearly as bad as Mullens conspiracy links.

One of the reasons is a plain and simple as the nose on you're face........

But a bit to obvious for Professor Marko.
  1. 18-01-2021 17:06
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 36
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The Polish report that questions the official numbers?? I have to admit to not having read that. So the Poles are querying the French numbers? The French don't know how to calculate their own dead ? Or Switzerland? Really? I would be surprised

Lift the lockdown and get people back to work, everywhere- bars, restaurants football, schools, the works. Today.
There will be a short spike in respiratory deaths because everyone's immune system has been weakened by sitting home, then numbers will fall. We know they will fall because the virus behaves exactly like flu, and as we end January cases will begin to fall.

There is going to be a huge issue that we have to clear the backlog of operations, but we can at least begin to address heart disease, cancer etc. Puttig beds back in wards will increase hospital capacity.

The NHS needs a leg up. We have the buildings, so address the staff shortages, so we can hit operation targets. God forbid bring in some foreigners but that is better than dying.
Either prologue furlough or increase UC to help the new 1.5m unemployed get back into work. Stimulate the economy by investing in infrastructure

Raise the money by scrapping Trident. It'll cover the bill 5 times over. There you go
  1. 18-01-2021 18:03
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 37
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The Polish report that questions the official numbers?? I have to admit to not having read that. So the Poles are querying the French numbers? The French don't know how to calculate their own dead ? Or Switzerland? Really? I would be surprised

Lift the lockdown and get people back to work, everywhere- bars, restaurants football, schools, the works. Today.
There will be a short spike in respiratory deaths because everyone's immune system has been weakened by sitting home, then numbers will fall. We know they will fall because the virus behaves exactly like flu, and as we end January cases will begin to fall.

There is going to be a huge issue that we have to clear the backlog of operations, but we can at least begin to address heart disease, cancer etc. Puttig beds back in wards will increase hospital capacity.

The NHS needs a leg up. We have the buildings, so address the staff shortages, so we can hit operation targets. God forbid bring in some foreigners but that is better than dying.
Either prologue furlough or increase UC to help the new 1.5m unemployed get back into work. Stimulate the economy by investing in infrastructure

Raise the money by scrapping Trident. It'll cover the bill 5 times over. There you go


You really are beyond parody. Who mentioned Poland and France???? You didn't read it because it is evidence that you are wrong!

DON'T stop lockdown before (i) hospital numbers are substantially lower than they are today and (ii) the path to herd immunity through vaccination is confirmed.

On death - the rates are reducing due to our excellent NHS. (see https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/18/analysis-second-wave-nothing-like-first/)
  1. 18-01-2021 18:20
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 38
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The Polish report that questions the official numbers?? I have to admit to not having read that. So the Poles are querying the French numbers? The French don't know how to calculate their own dead ? Or Switzerland? Really? I would be surprised

Lift the lockdown and get people back to work, everywhere- bars, restaurants football, schools, the works. Today.
There will be a short spike in respiratory deaths because everyone's immune system has been weakened by sitting home, then numbers will fall. We know they will fall because the virus behaves exactly like flu, and as we end January cases will begin to fall.

There is going to be a huge issue that we have to clear the backlog of operations, but we can at least begin to address heart disease, cancer etc. Puttig beds back in wards will increase hospital capacity.

The NHS needs a leg up. We have the buildings, so address the staff shortages, so we can hit operation targets. God forbid bring in some foreigners but that is better than dying.
Either prologue furlough or increase UC to help the new 1.5m unemployed get back into work. Stimulate the economy by investing in infrastructure

Raise the money by scrapping Trident. It'll cover the bill 5 times over. There you go


You really are beyond parody. Who mentioned Poland and France???? You didn't read it because it is evidence that you are wrong!

DON'T stop lockdown before (i) hospital numbers are substantially lower than they are today and (ii) the path to herd immunity through vaccination is confirmed.

On death - the rates are reducing due to our excellent NHS. (see https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/18/analysis-second-wave-nothing-like-first/)




Who mentioned Poland?? You did!! I didn't read the Polish report because I had no idea it existed.
But of course you ignore the Polish reprot that questions the integrity of the official data.

The article is behind a paywall. The visible bit says 'On January 13, Dr Yvonne Doyle, the medical director at Public Health England (PHE) issued an alarming statement claiming that Britain had reported the highest number of coronavirus deaths on a single day since the pandemic began....' So rates are falling, but we have the highest number of deaths? Perhaps you can quote the rest of the article?
And what about excess deaths? The number of people dying of other illnesses, in excess of the expected number because of the lockdown. They are where?

DON'T stop lockdown before (i) hospital numbers are substantially lower than they are today and (ii) the path to herd immunity through vaccination is confirmed.

The hospital numbers will rocket. They cancelled 2m operations last year, it will take years to recover that number.
We haven't got herd immunity for the flu after 30 years.
  1. 18-01-2021 19:44
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 39
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Is there any other cause of death apart from covid that is not counted 28 days after diagnosis?
  1. 18-01-2021 23:24
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 40
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I'm lost, what exactly is Marko's point now? He's gone from there's no epidemic a couple of months ago to we're the worst affected in the world. To be fair it he wants to ascribe the latter to the tories being a bunch of useless fuckheads who spent the first few months making sure their mates got in at the trough then fair enough.
  1. 18-01-2021 23:44
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 41
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Does anyone just keep scrolling when Markos posts go up on here already knowing its just pure bollocks;)
  1. 19-01-2021 10:40
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 42
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Backlog will be horrendous. Yes some are for things like ingrown toenail and cataract but some will be life changing/saving surgery put on hold for a year.
  1. 19-01-2021 11:10
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 43
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The Polish report that questions the official numbers?? I have to admit to not having read that. So the Poles are querying the French numbers? The French don't know how to calculate their own dead ? Or Switzerland? Really? I would be surprised

Lift the lockdown and get people back to work, everywhere- bars, restaurants football, schools, the works. Today.
There will be a short spike in respiratory deaths because everyone's immune system has been weakened by sitting home, then numbers will fall. We know they will fall because the virus behaves exactly like flu, and as we end January cases will begin to fall.

There is going to be a huge issue that we have to clear the backlog of operations, but we can at least begin to address heart disease, cancer etc. Puttig beds back in wards will increase hospital capacity.

The NHS needs a leg up. We have the buildings, so address the staff shortages, so we can hit operation targets. God forbid bring in some foreigners but that is better than dying.
Either prologue furlough or increase UC to help the new 1.5m unemployed get back into work. Stimulate the economy by investing in infrastructure

Raise the money by scrapping Trident. It'll cover the bill 5 times over. There you go


You really are beyond parody. Who mentioned Poland and France???? You didn't read it because it is evidence that you are wrong!

DON'T stop lockdown before (i) hospital numbers are substantially lower than they are today and (ii) the path to herd immunity through vaccination is confirmed.

On death - the rates are reducing due to our excellent NHS. (see https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/18/analysis-second-wave-nothing-like-first/)




Who mentioned Poland?? You did!! I didn't read the Polish report because I had no idea it existed.
But of course you ignore the Polish reprot that questions the integrity of the official data.

The article is behind a paywall. The visible bit says 'On January 13, Dr Yvonne Doyle, the medical director at Public Health England (PHE) issued an alarming statement claiming that Britain had reported the highest number of coronavirus deaths on a single day since the pandemic began....' So rates are falling, but we have the highest number of deaths? Perhaps you can quote the rest of the article?
And what about excess deaths? The number of people dying of other illnesses, in excess of the expected number because of the lockdown. They are where?

DON'T stop lockdown before (i) hospital numbers are substantially lower than they are today and (ii) the path to herd immunity through vaccination is confirmed.

The hospital numbers will rocket. They cancelled 2m operations last year, it will take years to recover that number.
We haven't got herd immunity for the flu after 30 years.


You make me laugh - not with you but at you.

If the article that doesn't mention France is behind a firewall I don't know how I accessed it (twice) but to save you the bother I already cut & pasted the full article. Yes one of the main issues with the virus is the pressure on the NHS - similar to many other countries. What would you do - let the people suffering from bad covid stay home and die? Certainly we do not have a cure or herd immunity from flu (30 years??????) - but we learnt how to handle it. Hopefully the same will happen with covid, but in the meantime we have avoided a disaster like spanish flu that took the lives of 20 to 50 million people.

By the way read the article in today's Guardian covering another of your favorite countries - Japan.


Although Japan has avoided the huge caseloads and death tolls seen in some other countries, infections have doubled over the past six weeks to about 338,000, according to the public broadcaster NHK, with 4,623 deaths. The increase, coupled with the discovery of the first recorded community transmissions of a fast-spreading strain of Covid-19 initially identified in Britain, is adding to pressure on the prime minister, Yoshihide Suga, to move quickly to protect stretched medical services. “What is important is to provide necessary services to people in need. We will exhaust all measures to safeguard the medical system,”

Suga, whose handling of the pandemic has caused his approval rating to plummet, declared a month-long state of emergency in the greater Tokyo area on 7 January that was quickly expanded to cover half the country’s 126 million people. But his own advisers have warned the measures, which include asking bars and restaurants to close early and people to avoid non-essential outings, are unlikely to have much effect. Shigeru Omi, the head of the government’s subcommittee on the pandemic, said they would need to be in place for longer than a month, while the president of the Japan Medical Association, Toshio Nakagawa, said Suga should consider bringing the entire country under a state of emergency. Nakagawa was also dismissive of government plans to offer subsidies to hospitals that free up more beds for Covid patients. “There aren’t enough doctors or nurses,” he said. “Even if hospitals are told to increase the number of beds, what can’t be done, can’t be done. If the number of infection cases keeps rising, the healthcare system could be wiped out.
  1. 19-01-2021 11:22
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 44
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Backlog will be horrendous. Yes some are for things like ingrown toenail and cataract but some will be life changing/saving surgery put on hold for a year.


Too true. We have had nearly a year of people being stuck at home not having regular check-ups by dentists, doctors and opticians. Dentists find most of the mouth cancers through regular checks at a stage where treatment is possible. Hundreds of thousands of people won't have had their Type 2 diabetes diagnosed. It is going to take years for the NHS to clear the backlog and recover to just how it was pre-pandemic.

Brexit has made it much more difficult for the NHS to recruit EU medical staff as EU qualifications may no longer be automatically recognised. I've known of Polish doctors working 3 days a week in London and 3 days in Poland. That's not going to be possible any more even if there were no flight or quarantine restrictions.

I think the solution has to be an investment programme in private hospitals which can also provide capacity to the NHS on a contract basis. Private hospitals don't have the staff absentee rates of the NHS and can pay better but they don't have the ability to recruit directly from countries like the Philippines like the NHS can.
  1. 19-01-2021 11:58
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 45
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The depth and seriousness of the situation is now being realised. Daily the Hospital admissions increase, as well as the resources in Hospitals decreases as more and more staff become infected.

My guess is, everyone now knows lots of people who are Covid positive, some are dealing with it OK, some need Hospital care to increase blood/oxygen levels.

The family I know who caught it two weeks ago, the mother and daughter are almost over it (in fact the daughter is), the father has been admitted to Hospital, he is 51 and physically fit.

Today alone I have heard of 7 local people who are positive, two have been Hospitalised, one is over 80 years old. One of the others is over 80, however had the vaccination 5 days ago, lets see how they get on.

It looks like this second wave is likely to infect most of us, there appears to be a certain inevitability about it.

Some dark days ahead I'm afraid.
  1. 19-01-2021 12:51
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 46


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