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  1. Laffy
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  3. 20-03-2017 12:23
Looks like they have made a loan to the 1921 company-registered at Companies House.
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How much would it cost to knock the old stands down and build a 5,000 new stand.

Then stick a roof on the Waterworks and bobs your uncle.


If a new ground ain’t happening, at least a modest redevelopment of Brunton Park would be nice! A small 1500-2000 seater stand at the waterworks end (moved back to lineup with the east stand) would be a start - if it’s feasible. Replace the paddock side with 4000 seats, and you’ve got a 12k seated capacity with the WRE still to go.

Does the flood risk really rule this out? And if not, why have the owners allowed BP to rot and fester? Why is the east stand still not completely finished after a quarter of a century?


Any redevelopment would have to not increase the affect of flooding and would have to sit on the same footprint, plus a bank would have to be willing to take the risk to loan the money .


If we can’t shift the footprint of the ground, presumably we can’t realign the stands? That’s a bit of a problem in my view.


Knighton must have shifted the footprint.


He did indeed. Can only presume that recent floods have moved the planning goalposts?

Yeah it's the floods
  1. 11-04-2021 21:05
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  3. # 1501
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I can’t confirm at all and I don’t know but I’ve been told by a couple of people today to keep an eye out on companies house in the next few days regarding ownership news.
  1. 12-04-2021 17:28
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  3. # 1502
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I can’t confirm at all and I don’t know but I’ve been told by a couple of people today to keep an eye out on companies house in the next few days regarding ownership news.


These sources the same quality as your vaccine informants? :p
  1. 12-04-2021 17:32
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  3. # 1503
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I can’t confirm at all and I don’t know but I’ve been told by a couple of people today to keep an eye out on companies house in the next few days regarding ownership news.


These sources the same quality as your vaccine informants? :p


Yes

Might be something linked/getting it done by June 30th.
  1. 12-04-2021 17:36
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  3. # 1504
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I’ve become so cynical towards the idea of regime change that I’d likely not believe it even if I saw it happening.
  1. 12-04-2021 17:43
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  3. # 1505
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I don’t know what it is.

It could be about the loan.
It could be someone’s leaving.
It could be shares transferring.
Or it could be complete regime change - unlikely.

I don’t know, but I’ll keep an eye out for anything interesting.
  1. 12-04-2021 17:58
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  3. # 1506
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If I had to hasten a guess, I wouldn’t be too excited, and it’s probably to do with the transfer of debt and the removal of a director from the holdings board.
  1. 12-04-2021 18:15
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  3. # 1507
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I’m with Mullen-possibly debt forgiveness again into meaningless non voting shares and possible removal of the Trust blocking right.

Can’t see a buyer in this market
  1. 12-04-2021 20:02
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  3. # 1508
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Apart from yourself of course!?!

Don’t tell me your latest round of takeover hint dropping was merely hot air and bluster

I’ve invested thousands of pounds in ‘Slavvy Bilic Blue and White’ army T-shirts thinking I would make a killing once you finally announced your bid :(
  1. 12-04-2021 20:49
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  3. # 1509
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And you clearly bought it hook,line and sinker

Gotcha
  1. 12-04-2021 22:16
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  3. # 1510
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A bit mean of you to mislead your fellow Blues as to your intentions :o

But at least we now know where you stand and can turn focus to serious potential investors
  1. 13-04-2021 06:04
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  3. # 1511
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You clearly can’t read-I have repeatedly said that I have no intention or desire to invest in or buy the football club

I would be interested in a project involving the construction of a community based asset which comprises a new stadium but which is not owned by the club.Why?Well I know how to finance it and it would be something that did not promote the idea I was trying to make money out of it
  1. 13-04-2021 06:32
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  3. # 1512
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Given how many parties have shown interest or attempted to take on the club it’s such a shame that these parties have not thought to get together as a group with the supporters on board and make a serious very public attempt to take over the club one that the present owners would have trouble pushing to one side, especially given what has happened to their golden goose hope EWM.
That way AL you could focus on the ground issue while others take on the football side of things.
The only sure long term plan for the club is for it to become self supporting and not have to rely on the generosity of one individual. If something doesn’t happen soon I fear that the clubs decline may well accelerate to the point that it no longer exists, all this back biting and insults are not in the least helpful when all any of us want is a club that can fulfill it’s potential and that we can be proud of.
  1. 13-04-2021 08:23
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  3. # 1513
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You clearly can’t read-I have repeatedly said that I have no intention or desire to invest in or buy the football club

I would be interested in a project involving the construction of a community based asset which comprises a new stadium but which is not owned by the club.Why?Well I know how to finance it and it would be something that did not promote the idea I was trying to make money out of it

Genuine question on this Laffy - if the club did not have a ground as an asset, does that not leave them exposed in terms of finance/valuation?
Have always thought it odd over the years the valuation of the club seems way too high, mainly backed by the ground as an asset (which is pretty much worthless).
I suppose what I am saying is would it not remove the fallacy of the value of the club, and what would be the implications of that? A really low value would surely leave it open to predators?
  1. 13-04-2021 09:53
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  3. # 1514
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As I said earlier, IHG are one of the biggest hoteliers in the world-they don’t own them.

The old game of leveraging the stadium to the bank died in the 2008 crash.Banks only lend on assets such as this with strong cashflow or PGs-EWM followed this route.Stadiums are a no no

A great example was Ibrox-HBOS lent huge sums against a dodgy £100m valuation for the stadium.At the end of the day, it’s a stadium in a shit part of Glasgow with no alternative use anywhere near £100m!
  1. 13-04-2021 10:20
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  3. # 1515
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EWM is not in administration, is it? It came out.
Assuming the debt has passed to the new owners it would be very surprising if they didn't try and collect.
We have earned how much from players sales? £3m. Minus £1.5m from lost attendance money. So the cash is there to repay some of the loan at least. Bit tragic that when the Directors did so well to improve the finances they had the rug pulled from under their feet
  1. 13-04-2021 10:36
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  3. # 1516
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Yes-it’s very unfortunate
  1. 13-04-2021 10:51
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  3. # 1517
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Marko, EWM Holdings Ltd never went into administration but The Edinburgh Woollen Mill Limited did and will eventually be liquidated. Some of the assets including the Carlisle United loan were acquired by Purepay Retail Limited which is connected to associates of Day. So far Purepay have stepped into the shoes of EWM as regards the loan and their attitude towards repayment but yes that could change. It would be sad to see but if one of the directors with a pg were to die then that could be a trigger point for something to happen. I can't see their executors being at all happy with an outstanding pg and I wouldn't want to speculate on how it would be resolved.
  1. 13-04-2021 11:35
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  3. # 1518
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EWM/Peacocks have been “taken over” or handed over to Days mate Simpson.

Simpson was born in Penrith and has family here. That may be beneficial news in terms of calling the loan in.

I’m with Laffy you’re not going to touch this club now with a million foot bargepoll unless you’ve had a labotomy or won the euro millions highest ever jackpot.

The owners had a chance to be part of something but they refused due to their self importance. They are stuck due to the “very unfortunate” events whereby in normal circumstances the fortunate football fortune might have been a way out but instead has been used to pop the club up, thankfully it came.

As for the future of the club now - worried!
  1. 13-04-2021 11:37
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  3. # 1519
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Philip day will have worked all this out and come out rosey, he's pulled this straight out of the Trump/Green playbook.
  1. 13-04-2021 13:40
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  3. # 1520
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I think Sir Lapp too often see’s the club with his accountants hat on.

Ground ownership isn’t just a financial issue. Some clubs who sold theirs have ended up in dispute with the owners and ground sharing miles away. Can’t play your home games on a slightly improved balance sheet.

Also there is sentimental attachment to BP. Ramshackle but also rather grand. Very rare that you visit an away ground and are jealous. Especially not when sitting on a park and ride bus crawling it’s way to the outskirts of Colchester.

Not totally closed off to the idea of a new ground. But it would have to be actually in Carlisle, similar capacity to BP, owned by the club and not some add on to a campus project for me to be enthusiastic
  1. 13-04-2021 14:56
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  3. # 1521
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I think Sir Lapp too often see’s the club with his accountants hat on.

Ground ownership isn’t just a financial issue. Some clubs who sold theirs have ended up in dispute with the owners and ground sharing miles away. Can’t play your home games on a slightly improved balance sheet.

Also there is sentimental attachment to BP. Ramshackle but also rather grand. Very rare that you visit an away ground and are jealous. Especially not when sitting on a park and ride bus crawling it’s way to the outskirts of Colchester.

Not totally closed off to the idea of a new ground. But it would have to be actually in Carlisle, similar capacity to BP, owned by the club and not some add on to a campus project for me to be enthusiastic


A long term lease, community ownership of the stadium - a couple of ways of ensuring the security of any stay at a new ground not owned outright by the club.

Sentiment is irrelevant, I’m afraid. Many an afternoon and evening spent on those terraces, and even today I would divide my time between the WRE and the East stand. But it means nothing if the maintenance of the ground continues to cost a fortune, or if flooding continues to undermine the long term viability of BP.

In terms of capacity, I’d settle for something with as little as 12k seats - so long as scope was left for significant future development. As for location, the outskirts of the city would be fine by me - provided there were genuine, straightforward links between the city centre and the new development.

I struggle to see any reasonable argument for staying at BP if we cannot both guarantee it’s future and also redevelop it.
  1. 13-04-2021 15:59
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  3. # 1522
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Why thank you Mansfield-we are aligned

BP is dear to all our hearts-but the success stories are outweighed by the failures and mediocrity.Even when we were in the first division, we were known as the ‘shoe string’ team.I’ve always struggled to spend sentiment at Tesco-its not a currency.

I look at this in an accountants way because football success is intrinsically linked to money-and BP devours cash.

There is no worry in my camp about splitting the asset off-it’s going to be owned as a community asset.I’m not Ron Noades or that guy in York.
  1. 13-04-2021 16:37
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  3. # 1523
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I think Sir Lapp too often see’s the club with his accountants hat on.

Ground ownership isn’t just a financial issue. Some clubs who sold theirs have ended up in dispute with the owners and ground sharing miles away. Can’t play your home games on a slightly improved balance sheet.

Also there is sentimental attachment to BP. Ramshackle but also rather grand. Very rare that you visit an away ground and are jealous. Especially not when sitting on a park and ride bus crawling it’s way to the outskirts of Colchester.

Not totally closed off to the idea of a new ground. But it would have to be actually in Carlisle, similar capacity to BP, owned by the club and not some add on to a campus project for me to be enthusiastic


A long term lease, community ownership of the stadium - a couple of ways of ensuring the security of any stay at a new ground not owned outright by the club.

Sentiment is irrelevant, I’m afraid. Many an afternoon and evening spent on those terraces, and even today I would divide my time between the WRE and the East stand. But it means nothing if the maintenance of the ground continues to cost a fortune, or if flooding continues to undermine the long term viability of BP.

In terms of capacity, I’d settle for something with as little as 12k seats - so long as scope was left for significant future development. As for location, the outskirts of the city would be fine by me - provided there were genuine, straightforward links between the city centre and the new development.

I struggle to see any reasonable argument for staying at BP if we cannot both guarantee it’s future and also redevelop it.



A nice new little stadium doesn't necessary guarantee a bright future.
  1. 13-04-2021 16:48
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  3. # 1524
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I think Sir Lapp too often see’s the club with his accountants hat on.

Ground ownership isn’t just a financial issue. Some clubs who sold theirs have ended up in dispute with the owners and ground sharing miles away. Can’t play your home games on a slightly improved balance sheet.

Also there is sentimental attachment to BP. Ramshackle but also rather grand. Very rare that you visit an away ground and are jealous. Especially not when sitting on a park and ride bus crawling it’s way to the outskirts of Colchester.

Not totally closed off to the idea of a new ground. But it would have to be actually in Carlisle, similar capacity to BP, owned by the club and not some add on to a campus project for me to be enthusiastic


A long term lease, community ownership of the stadium - a couple of ways of ensuring the security of any stay at a new ground not owned outright by the club.

Sentiment is irrelevant, I’m afraid. Many an afternoon and evening spent on those terraces, and even today I would divide my time between the WRE and the East stand. But it means nothing if the maintenance of the ground continues to cost a fortune, or if flooding continues to undermine the long term viability of BP.

In terms of capacity, I’d settle for something with as little as 12k seats - so long as scope was left for significant future development. As for location, the outskirts of the city would be fine by me - provided there were genuine, straightforward links between the city centre and the new development.

I struggle to see any reasonable argument for staying at BP if we cannot both guarantee it’s future and also redevelop it.



A nice new little stadium doesn't necessary guarantee a bright future.


Of course, but staying at an oversized, dilapidated, lob-sided, flood-prone tin shed doesn’t do us any favours!
  1. 13-04-2021 16:52
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  3. # 1525
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Marko, EWM Holdings Ltd never went into administration but The Edinburgh Woollen Mill Limited did and will eventually be liquidated. Some of the assets including the Carlisle United loan were acquired by Purepay Retail Limited which is connected to associates of Day. So far Purepay have stepped into the shoes of EWM as regards the loan and their attitude towards repayment but yes that could change. It would be sad to see but if one of the directors with a pg were to die then that could be a trigger point for something to happen. I can't see their executors being at all happy with an outstanding pg and I wouldn't want to speculate on how it would be resolved.


Interesting. They can only call in the loan if the club is in default. And personal guarantees die with the guarantor. So, forgive me for saying, but financially aj passing on could be good news, money wise
  1. 13-04-2021 17:15
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  3. # 1526
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
How many clubs have come in to trouble after selling their ground and started renting elsewhere. It's not like we're Coventry and csn go and play our home games 15 miles down the road.
  1. 13-04-2021 17:41
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  3. # 1527
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
How many clubs have come in to trouble after selling their ground and started renting elsewhere. It's not like we're Coventry and csn go and play our home games 15 miles down the road.


So set it up in a fashion that’s safe for the club, a la the Keepmoat.
  1. 13-04-2021 17:43
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  3. # 1528
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I don’t think PGs go fall away with the demise of the guarantor Marko but I agree they only get called on default

The problem is the terms of the EWM loan have never been disclosed in terms of length or default provision.
  1. 13-04-2021 17:46
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  3. # 1529
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Why should the terms be disclosed. Its a privately owned company that happens to be a football club. It would not be made common knowledge if it was to a coffee shop that we all attended 20 odd times a year . Just breaking it down to basics not criticism. The one thing i find wierd is the three have signed PGs and the other large shareholder hasnt yet wants a say. Again that wouldn't happen in our hypothetical coffee shop scenario .
But football seems to be wierd like that..
  1. 13-04-2021 18:01
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  3. # 1530
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The terms are usually disclosed to all the stakeholders so the Trust should know.

Accounts normally provide a bit of detail but the clue on term is the fact is sitting in long term rather than short term liabilities in the balance sheet.If would usually stroll into the latter when the remaining term is less than 12 months.

I’m old enough to remember the terms of the Bristol and West loan which MK signed up to-those Wonga like LLP terms were a real hot potato

Fair play to the guys who signed the PG for the club-I wouldn’t
  1. 13-04-2021 18:20
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  3. # 1531
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
A couple of foot added to the top of the flood defences over the last couple of weeks must have added at least another zero to BP's value.
  1. 13-04-2021 18:27
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  3. # 1532
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
And the ‘dance’ is complete-a very predictable but perfectly legal outcome

Philip Day’s ‘phoenixing’ scheme at Peacocks ruffles feathers

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bb67cde8-9c6a-11eb-8da6-6f8eecc82ac3?shareToken=fcf912bb4ad6bd736cfbdd87e55d5c9f
  1. 13-04-2021 18:35
  2. Main Forum
  3. # 1533
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Marko, EWM Holdings Ltd never went into administration but The Edinburgh Woollen Mill Limited did and will eventually be liquidated. Some of the assets including the Carlisle United loan were acquired by Purepay Retail Limited which is connected to associates of Day. So far Purepay have stepped into the shoes of EWM as regards the loan and their attitude towards repayment but yes that could change. It would be sad to see but if one of the directors with a pg were to die then that could be a trigger point for something to happen. I can't see their executors being at all happy with an outstanding pg and I wouldn't want to speculate on how it would be resolved.


Interesting. They can only call in the loan if the club is in default. And personal guarantees die with the guarantor. So, forgive me for saying, but financially aj passing on could be good news, money wise


Personal Guarantees don't expire on death, they pass on to the estate. The probability if one of the guarantors were to die is that Purepay would give notice that repayment is required. The executors would then have to provide for the potential exposure in the event of default.
  1. 13-04-2021 20:16
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  3. # 1534
ccu
Site Admin
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Interesting comment:

Asked by BBC Radio Cumbria if there was any further news about possible investment in the club, Holdsworth added: “I think that will come out in the wash, at the relevant time.
References
  1. https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/sport/19252498.carlisle-uniteds-david-holdsworth-finances-edinburgh-woollen-mill/
  1. 23-04-2021 18:09
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  3. # 1535
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
‘Happy with where we are’

It seems mediocrity and under achievement is contagious.I find it corrosive and call it failure
  1. 23-04-2021 21:49
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  3. # 1536
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I am still desperately trying to get over not getting to at least the play offs and he is happy where we are, it just shows the disparity between the suits and supporters.

Words fail.
  1. 23-04-2021 22:00
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  3. # 1537
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
There is clearly a dispute of what constitutes success.The club seem to think survival is paramount.

I get out of bed every morning thinking how can I be the best I can be-not thinking how can I survive the day
  1. 23-04-2021 22:14
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  3. # 1538
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Interesting comment:

Asked by BBC Radio Cumbria if there was any further news about possible investment in the club, Holdsworth added: “I think that will come out in the wash, at the relevant time.


Every of his interviews you read, he comes across as a smug [censored] :o
  1. 23-04-2021 22:21
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  3. # 1539
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Nobody is insane enough to invest in equity with £2.1m of debt in the balance sheet That would be a better answer as it’s the truth
  1. 23-04-2021 22:28
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  3. # 1540
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Interesting that EWM and under the EWM name have started recruiting again for positions at the Carlisle head office.
  1. 11-05-2021 21:16
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  3. # 1541


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