CheckATrade Trophy 2018/19

Bumble wrote:

Mortonblue wrote:

Bumble wrote: I think a lot of people now accept that football is rotten from top to bottom and there is nothing they can do about it so they just go and watch their team.

Sorry i do not agree with that statement,we all knew that football was rotten from top to bottom,but this is a competition that should have nothing to do with the premier league, therefore i will not attend as others also do. ( i went to ALL 46 league games last season ) so it can be done.
Bollocks to this farce.

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Personally, as a fan I didn't to any last season and won't go to any this season, even if we get to the final. The whole thing disgusts me, the justifications trotted out only make it worse and shows up the competition and the organisers for what they are. If I have work then I'll go because I can't afford to turn work down but the pleasure I got from that competition has gone. I don't think I missed a round of the competiton home or away since the 2011 final until the FA killed the competiton.

There are a lot of fans (particularly the younger end who didn't follow the club and feel the pride of the old Wembley finals) who don't feel the sense of the competition being broken beyond repair, and don't get the anger, or the real fear, that we have opened the door for B teams to sneak into the League. I think the FA are hoping that in another two years gates will have risen and anger abated.

Simply not going to happen tho is it

There are club owners who voted against it in June who are now very unhappy about what's gone on since. Whether any of them will have the balls to force the issue on this before its too late I don't know.

But take Andy Holt they knew his knowledge of the game doesn't really go back much more than 5 years they have lied to him thru their teeth, for example, they told him winning it is now worth 500k yes it is but what they neglected to tell him was it always has been seen the competition started 30 years ago so given inflation i.d say not only not only is it now worth about half what winning it used to be worth but theres clearly no PL money involved there.

They told him that the PL would be compensating clubs for the losses they now make staging games in the group sections To date not a single penny has been paid to any club for this.

They told him that if you won your two home group games and were at home in the next round and won it would be worth 100k to your club complete and utter bullshit the absolute maximum it could possibly be worth is 50k but then you have to deduct the losses you.ve made staging those 3 games its utter crap and in the case of the losing semi-finalists they actually receive considerably less than they did under the old system.

And it goes on and on but when a certain club owner asked at the June meeting if it was possible to run a competition delivering the same financial returns without the PL.s involvement he was told no which is clearly a lie as its now pretty certain that the PL are putting well under a million in each year and three things alone could wipe that amount out firstly the losses incurred for staging matches which clubs lose money on is estimated at about 400k . Take the final match away from Wembley and lose lets say 400k of what they pay out to the [ FA Owned ] Wembley for staging it [ how often does the attendance go above 65k and by making tickets harder to get they would attract a premium price which the fans would recover by not having to travel to/stay over in London ] The final could alternate between a North and South venue [ Liverpool offered to host it two years ago for nothing and i.m pretty sure its something Spurs could well be interested in ] and theres the issue of what used to known as the regional finals which were played over two legs and between the four games an aggregate attendance of 50k is not over the top meaning the ties between them could generate a take of over a million so take say 200k of that money and add it into our equation and hey presto you.ve just replaced the PL.s total cash each and every year without the need for any smoke and mirrors and thats before you look at having sponsorship and tv deals that actually bring some money in.

I.m sorry but anybody who cant see that the clubs are being sold a pup and being blatantly lied to and misled by someone who clearly in the pay of the PL are quite frankly living in cloud cuckoo land and then we get to who made the decisions as to the action that was taken against the owner of the Against League Three website [ who I doubt most of the club owners will never of even heard of ] and who would have carried the can had the lad from Southport had the bottle [ and the cash ] to take it to plod and pursued a case of corporate blackmail.

The whole set up at the FL stinks and always will do while it is an organisation owned by and run as a benefit society purely for the benefit of 72 club owners and not for the benefit of the people who every week spend millions of pounds every week on their product. What other company would openly let their CEO accept payments from a third party and openly act as their advocate at his employer's organisation?

Yes, the first step in creating a proper company to run the operation of the Football League would be to cut out the cancer that is Shaun Harvey. I often wonder what the likes of Alan Hardaker would make of what has become of the organisation he ruled over for over 2 decades.

Shame some still have no principals on this shan.

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franksidebottom wrote: Just read the article about Max Power, Southend got 2 players in a similar boat from Saturday. Got a 3 game ban after a straight red on Saturday but not allowed to play in the checkatrade tonight even though the tournament games don’t count towards his 3 match ban! So it’s a 4 match ban really!

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45410311

When you thought this competition couldn’t get any more shambolic.

Add that to the ridiculous scenario that often happens at the end of a final group game where a team can win a penalty shootout but be knocked out, whilst the team that loses the penalty shootout has gone through to the next round.

The whole thing is a shambles. It’s like they’ve got 5 year olds to come up with the rules. Actually that’s probably being harsh on 5 year olds.

Nice piece here

thesetpieces.com/features/b-teams-jpt/

I'd love to know where people who go to these games are prepared to draw the line.

At what point do you stop allowing the Football League to make mugs out of us?

Well my mates say they just go coz Carlisle are playing. I don’t think it’d bother them if we were playing a Sunday league match tbh. They’d automatically migrate to the Mecca that is Brunton Park. I’m not gonna slate them for that. They’ve done it for 40 or more years. I haven’t been since the B teams came in but I wouldn’t say I never would.

Bumble wrote: I think a lot of people now accept that football is rotten from top to bottom and there is nothing they can do about it so they just go and watch their team.

But fans also can't have it both ways. A decent league 1 striker is looking for 100/150k a year income. Fans want us to sign those players to get promoted. Therefore if we are offered a few grand to play Chelsea reserves the options are either take the devil's money or refuse it and finish below the teams that take the cash. Jenkins comes on here and reads that he's a moron and doesn't know how to run a business. If we could get to Wembley the money would support us for a couple of years. If we could make 100k and that money was given to Sheridan and he signed a couple of players how many people are going to stand on the terraces and say-'Even though we are winning I'm not going because they were bought with tainted money? None


It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change.

Refuse it like many of us but you have no principals or morals regarding the potential this has to ruin football.as it is in the lower leagues. and are part of the problem for accepting such bullshit.

If you think this trophy alone will save bacon then you are deluded


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Football clubs in our division lose 3/500k a year. That is unsustainable, look at the issues we have finding a new owner both able and willing to fund that kind of money. For Chelsea or Arsenal, it is chump change, feeder clubs, reserves, link ups whatever you want to call it will come unless something else happens to change the game. The best result would be a fall in players wages so that clubs can live in their means but no sign of that yet.

We now have approximately half of the premier league clubs who would break even or turn a profit if no fans came through the gate. If you think sitting on your sofa holding your breath is going to stop the tide of change in the game you are going to be very disappointed.

That’s a great article. Certainly sums up my view perfectly.

Dancingbear wrote: Well my mates say they just go coz Carlisle are playing. I don’t think it’d bother them if we were playing a Sunday league match tbh. They’d automatically migrate to the Mecca that is Brunton Park. I’m not gonna slate them for that. They’ve done it for 40 or more years. I haven’t been since the B teams came in but I wouldn’t say I never would.

That's as maybe. But, do they complain about the riches of the Premier League and that clubs like us get a raw deal from them etc etc?

Because, they haven't got much right to given they are going to games in a competition where exactly that is happening.

To be fair they’ve as much right to say what they like as anyone else. Same as when NS and the likes have a pop at those of us who still go on a Saturday despite the mismanagement of the club.

I don't attend these games and won't in the future unless there is a significant change in it's rules and funding. The "it'll help the national side " line is utter tripe when the PL teams are full of young foreign players, to help the national side(s) it should be home nation players only. The money side is also ridiculous, a team getting relegated from the PL gets tens of millions in parachute payments over three years, Tens of millions for failure! They chuck? what? a couple of million at this competition to get their teams in? Shambles!! They should be chucking a hundred million in which could be then directed at helping, via grants and such, lower league clubs and youth football in general.

Markovitch wrote:

Bumble wrote: I think a lot of people now accept that football is rotten from top to bottom and there is nothing they can do about it so they just go and watch their team.

But fans also can't have it both ways. A decent league 1 striker is looking for 100/150k a year income. Fans want us to sign those players to get promoted. Therefore if we are offered a few grand to play Chelsea reserves the options are either take the devil's money or refuse it and finish below the teams that take the cash. Jenkins comes on here and reads that he's a moron and doesn't know how to run a business. If we could get to Wembley the money would support us for a couple of years. If we could make 100k and that money was given to Sheridan and he signed a couple of players how many people are going to stand on the terraces and say-'Even though we are winning I'm not going because they were bought with tainted money? None


It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change.

How about running the club more professionally and earning that money through things like sponsorship, better marketing, better promotion of the club, improved catering, increased gate receipts? Just a thought like.

I’ve never said Jenkins doesn’t know how to run a business, although the fact he was moved aside at Pioneer by his sons is very telling. What is pretty evident however is that he doesn’t know how to run a successful football club, he’s proved that well beyond doubt.

Markovitch wrote: Football clubs in our division lose 3/500k a year. That is unsustainable, look at the issues we have finding a new owner both able and willing to fund that kind of money. For Chelsea or Arsenal, it is chump change, feeder clubs, reserves, link ups whatever you want to call it will come unless something else happens to change the game. The best result would be a fall in players wages so that clubs can live in their means but no sign of that yet.

We now have approximately half of the premier league clubs who would break even or turn a profit if no fans came through the gate. If you think sitting on your sofa holding your breath is going to stop the tide of change in the game you are going to be very disappointed.

You’re still peddling the old myths that we’ve struggled to find a new owner and they’d have to be willing to prop the club up financially year on year.

Several parties have come forward during the last decade, some good some bad, but all have been dismissed. I wonder why?

Fred Story proved that the football club, if ran professionally, could be self sustainable. The proof is there but you choose to ignore it.

That's right Frank. A man who has built a business worth 20m, a man who was a UK board director of Pirelli and 2 chartered accountants at the club- and between them they didn't think to get any sponsorship or increase the gate receipts. Doh, what do these people do all day? You should phone them up and give them the benefit of your infinite wisdom because they are obviously not as knowledgeable as you. Phone Accrington, Morecambe, Cambridge, Forest Green, Newport, Crawley, Port Vale and all the other teams that are just wandering around dreaming about increasing revenue. FG would be a good one, the guy there is worth a £100m and his club loses a couple of million. You should definitely tell him what he's doing wrong. Do it Frank, go away and do it. You'll be a massive plus, trust me

I can't see any problem in going to these matches if you want to to be honest. I totally disagree with the format but the future of the competition is a fait accompli so any protest seems in vain. If you don't want to go don't go but I don't think that gives you the right to take the moral high ground over those who do.

Do you believe that they would never consider B teams in the lower leagues if this trial is successful?

Why would anyone ever imagine they haven't considered it already?


If they decide it is a good idea why would anyone ever imagine not going to games is going to stop it? Half of the alleged supporters on here spend their Saturdays on the sofa telling the other half not to go to games. The fewer people that go to games, the less fan revenue is a proportion of total income and so the less important your voice becomes. Why would Jenkins ever give a fig what Alan or MRF thinks when their total spend across a season is £0 and they spend all their time on here telling everyone else not to go to the games?

And if they do introduce it what difference does it make? Why is it different if a guy worth £100m buys a pub team in a village the size of Dalston and gets them in the league or if its a team funded by Chelsea?

If this does happen, and I don't see any evidence that anyone wants it at the moment, teams will have to be replaced. The teams that are relegated out are most likely to be those that are bankrupt so not going to games is likely to speed up the process of this happening and increases the chance that we disappear

walwynlegend wrote: Do you believe that they would never consider B teams in the lower leagues if this trial is successful?

Depends if you think it’s a trial or not. Personally I don’t think it is. Do you not think that if for example Chelsea wanted their B team in the league they’d be trying their best to win this competition. Doesn’t look to me that any premier league team is taking it seriously at all.

Markovitch wrote: Why would anyone ever imagine they haven't considered it already?


If they decide it is a good idea why would anyone ever imagine not going to games is going to stop it? Half of the alleged supporters on here spend their Saturdays on the sofa telling the other half not to go to games. The fewer people that go to games, the less fan revenue is a proportion of total income and so the less important your voice becomes. Why would Jenkins ever give a fig what Alan or MRF thinks when their total spend across a season is £0 and they spend all their time on here telling everyone else not to go to the games?

And if they do introduce it what difference does it make? Why is it different if a guy worth £100m buys a pub team in a village the size of Dalston and gets them in the league or if its a team funded by Chelsea?

If this does happen, and I don't see any evidence that anyone wants it at the moment, teams will have to be replaced. The teams that are relegated out are most likely to be those that are bankrupt so not going to games is likely to speed up the process of this happening and increases the chance that we disappear

But thats the whole point Marko no he isn't going to listen to me, MRF or Alan. But if I go banging on his door with 3000k names and their cash backing that up he.d be a very stupid man to take no notice wouldn't he ? and then should he choose to take that course of action I would use that power to make things very difficult for him in his private life and for him and his business commercially to the point where he.d soon be inviting me back for a chat.

Only fly in the ointment is the people of North Cumbria seem very keen to just stay away and moan instead of getting together to be strong and force change for the better.

Markovitch wrote: Why would anyone ever imagine they haven't considered it already?


If they decide it is a good idea why would anyone ever imagine not going to games is going to stop it? Half of the alleged supporters on here spend their Saturdays on the sofa telling the other half not to go to games. The fewer people that go to games, the less fan revenue is a proportion of total income and so the less important your voice becomes. Why would Jenkins ever give a fig what Alan or MRF thinks when their total spend across a season is £0 and they spend all their time on here telling everyone else not to go to the games?

And if they do introduce it what difference does it make? Why is it different if a guy worth £100m buys a pub team in a village the size of Dalston and gets them in the league or if its a team funded by Chelsea?

If this does happen, and I don't see any evidence that anyone wants it at the moment, teams will have to be replaced. The teams that are relegated out are most likely to be those that are bankrupt so not going to games is likely to speed up the process of this happening and increases the chance that we disappear

If enough people decided it was a bad idea then it would stop. It woud be costing clubs too much money and the fa would have to scrap it. Most people estimate our really hard core support is around 3k and yet the attendance was only 1213 with 117 away fans. That says to me that quite a few hardcore fans have walked away from this competition because it has been broken beyond repair.

The original idea was great; a cup competition to be played between the two lower tiers of the football league with a cup for the winner. Now, for me, it has been totally devalued and means nothing, so I'm not going to watch it. To question my and others fans commitment to Carlisle United is at best a wind up. There are people who have stopped going to matches for whatever reason. Equally there are folk who go to 40+ games a season and hate missing matches but do so because they feel this competiton, in this guise is just plain wrong.

It's very easy to say, "I'm not going to do anything because no one cares or because I don't matter" but that's giving the likes of Harvey a charter to totally destroy our football.

I don't see how it will cost the EFL clubs money, to be honest. The Premier League teams will judge this by the benefit to the players involved, the money to them is virtually irrelevant. There are discussions already going on to increase the win money from 10k to 30k and I can't imagine it will be a problem. Clubs like Chelsea are paying their youth teams well over 100k a week. These kids are playing in empty stadiums in Aldershot as it stands, the PL clubs won't bat an eyelid at an extra 60k for 3 games if they feel there is a benefit. And clubs like Carlisle, desperate for revenue, will grab the cash. It is bugging when teams like Sunderland come and play 36-year-old Wes Brown in their youth team but the game going forward will be shaped by money, there is just too much of it for it to be any other way. And its symptomatic of the country, more and more in the hands of fewer and fewer

Win bonuses are fine when you win but if you lose there are a fair few expenses in opening a stadium to the public for a match, with stewards. safety etc. I think they would have to increase the general bribe money as wel lto keep clubs in line.

In the end though everyone has to make their own decision. I have plenty of friends who go to the matches and wouldn't dream of not going. I respect their decision, they respect mine. I wouldn't acuse either side of being not a fan because of their decision.

Charlie Adam played for Stoke the other night noticed as well Fulham had a 31 year old playing called Robert Atkinson. He’s had a very strange career path. Fleetwood to Accrington to Guisely then to Fulham.

Rowett could put out Stoke Mandeville for all Clibbens cares when that cheque clears

Markovitch wrote: That's right Frank. A man who has built a business worth 20m, a man who was a UK board director of Pirelli and 2 chartered accountants at the club- and between them they didn't think to get any sponsorship or increase the gate receipts. Doh, what do these people do all day? You should phone them up and give them the benefit of your infinite wisdom because they are obviously not as knowledgeable as you. Phone Accrington, Morecambe, Cambridge, Forest Green, Newport, Crawley, Port Vale and all the other teams that are just wandering around dreaming about increasing revenue. FG would be a good one, the guy there is worth a £100m and his club loses a couple of million. You should definitely tell him what he's doing wrong. Do it Frank, go away and do it. You'll be a massive plus, trust me

I get the impression from your post that you think they’re doing a good job with the football club? they’re maximising the club’s full financial potential? Sponsorship, business interest and gate receipts are as good as they can possibly be?

If so then tell me why there’s still advertising hoardings around the ground from deals which are 3 years old? We haven’t got a sales and marketing person at the club? A large number of games are without a match sponsor or ball sponsor? We’ve had a clapped out scoreboard for the best part of two years? A couple of thousand fans are choosing to stay away from games? Many of the players and staff were left without sponsors at the beginning of the season?

I’ll tell you why. Because the man who had built a business worth £20m is now in his 80’s and was moved aside at the said business before it went downhill. The man who was on the UK board of Pirelli isn’t a football fan and is too busy furthering his own lucrative career in the top echelons of the game to worry about little Carlisle any more and the other owner is a complete buffoon. Like I say they’ve proved beyond doubt that they are incapable of running a football club, in some cases twice over. How much more proof do you need?

Why pick clubs with minute support in FL terms to attempt to prove your point? I would hazard a guess the reason a lot of the aforementioned clubs struggle is because of their small fanbases, whereas we are one of the biggest clubs in the division who should be maximising our potential a hell of a lot better.

You are quite right-Marko has a tendency to pick on and benchmark other strugglers-be it football or politics.

Let’s focus on the clubs who were in the bottom division a few years ago but through good management and investment are now playing in new stadiums and in higher leagues.

We have been left behind through adopting a ‘manage the losses’ mentality.The consequence of that is a slow lingering decline before change is forced on you by circumstance ie you run out of cashflow

Yes well Andy, any benchmarking against the worst performers will naturally bring the current Government into the conversation. For the last 6 months I've been challenging you to come up with something, anything, they have done well. Any joy?

Frank, I don't have a new way to explain. I think everyone on the board except you, however grudgingly, understands the situation. To progress up the leagues our club needs very large amounts of investment, money our owner doesn't have. I don't understand why you are incapable of grasping it. Bumble has already posted that when we were in the L1 promotion race Fred was concerned about the sums of money involved because he saw the cost of running Preston in the Championship, that was why he was looking to offload the club. What is there about that not to understand?

I have no idea about the marketing guy. Laffy was on the interview panel that hired him, ask Laffy. But everyone seems to agree he didn't generate his salary so the consensus seems to be that no guy is better than the one we were lumbered with.

You still have the Schrodinger's cat situation where the club isn't formally up for sale so no one is coming forward but there have been a staedy stream of wealthy suitors, all of whom have been knocked back. Really? And we can't find sponsors to pay a couple of hundred quid for a board but people with a few million to invest are 10 a penny. Dear God

Maybe there’s people who do have a few quid who don’t want to sponsor this regime anymore? The sponsor boards used to be full and if as is suggested that there’s still boards up from 3 years ago then why would they pay when they know the club can’t even be arsed to take them down and they’re getting advertising for free. Beggars belief if that is the case.

Markovitch wrote: That's right Frank. A man who has built a business worth 20m, a man who was a UK board director of Pirelli and 2 chartered accountants at the club- and between them they didn't think to get any sponsorship or increase the gate receipts. Doh, what do these people do all day? You should phone them up and give them the benefit of your infinite wisdom because they are obviously not as knowledgeable as you. Phone Accrington, Morecambe, Cambridge, Forest Green, Newport, Crawley, Port Vale and all the other teams that are just wandering around dreaming about increasing revenue. FG would be a good one, the guy there is worth a £100m and his club loses a couple of million. You should definitely tell him what he's doing wrong. Do it Frank, go away and do it. You'll be a massive plus, trust me

Well, whether they thought about it or not they certainly haven't done anything about tho have they?

nobbyblue wrote: I can't see any problem in going to these matches if you want to to be honest. I totally disagree with the format but the future of the competition is a fait accompli so any protest seems in vain. If you don't want to go don't go but I don't think that gives you the right to take the moral high ground over those who do.

It's only a fait au compli if people do nothing it would be changed overnight if every supporter just cancelled their season tickets and took control of the issue

Bumble wrote:

Markovitch wrote: Why would anyone ever imagine they haven't considered it already?


If they decide it is a good idea why would anyone ever imagine not going to games is going to stop it? Half of the alleged supporters on here spend their Saturdays on the sofa telling the other half not to go to games. The fewer people that go to games, the less fan revenue is a proportion of total income and so the less important your voice becomes. Why would Jenkins ever give a fig what Alan or MRF thinks when their total spend across a season is £0 and they spend all their time on here telling everyone else not to go to the games?

And if they do introduce it what difference does it make? Why is it different if a guy worth £100m buys a pub team in a village the size of Dalston and gets them in the league or if its a team funded by Chelsea?

If this does happen, and I don't see any evidence that anyone wants it at the moment, teams will have to be replaced. The teams that are relegated out are most likely to be those that are bankrupt so not going to games is likely to speed up the process of this happening and increases the chance that we disappear

If enough people decided it was a bad idea then it would stop. It woud be costing clubs too much money and the fa would have to scrap it. Most people estimate our really hard core support is around 3k and yet the attendance was only 1213 with 117 away fans. That says to me that quite a few hardcore fans have walked away from this competition because it has been broken beyond repair.

The original idea was great; a cup competition to be played between the two lower tiers of the football league with a cup for the winner. Now, for me, it has been totally devalued and means nothing, so I'm not going to watch it. To question my and others fans commitment to Carlisle United is at best a wind up. There are people who have stopped going to matches for whatever reason. Equally there are folk who go to 40+ games a season and hate missing matches but do so because they feel this competiton, in this guise is just plain wrong.

It's very easy to say, "I'm not going to do anything because no one cares or because I don't matter" but that's giving the likes of Harvey a charter to totally destroy our football.

Well said,Bumble

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I hate the way most of the club's have allowed themselves to be bullied or roll over and have their tummies ticlked by the PL. If the whole shambles had gone on like it is now but had been robustly rejected by the club's in question we would have far more sympathy for the club and recognise they really are on our side fighting for our club. Instead, they couldn't wait to lie down, take a few pennies and say exactly what they are told to say by the big boys. We had a survey where 90% of fans said they didn't want the b teams in. Ignored. Blanked. Forgotten about. NC is saying in one breath the fans are so important and we will listen to them and work for them. In the next breath, we are shat on and patronised.

It is a disgrace of a competition now and the club's in the lower league who allowed this to happen are as bad as the PL bullies.
Surely an extra 1000 on the gate in these early rounds would make up for the pocket money they throw at us. It would certainly keep the integrity of the trophy and keep the fans united. Instead, it is just another bullet in the foot by the club and another reason to mistrust them.

Markovitch wrote: Yes well Andy, any benchmarking against the worst performers will naturally bring the current Government into the conversation. For the last 6 months I've been challenging you to come up with something, anything, they have done well. Any joy?

Frank, I don't have a new way to explain. I think everyone on the board except you, however grudgingly, understands the situation. To progress up the leagues our club needs very large amounts of investment, money our owner doesn't have. I don't understand why you are incapable of grasping it. Bumble has already posted that when we were in the L1 promotion race Fred was concerned about the sums of money involved because he saw the cost of running Preston in the Championship, that was why he was looking to offload the club. What is there about that not to understand?

I have no idea about the marketing guy. Laffy was on the interview panel that hired him, ask Laffy. But everyone seems to agree he didn't generate his salary so the consensus seems to be that no guy is better than the one we were lumbered with.

You still have the Schrodinger's cat situation where the club isn't formally up for sale so no one is coming forward but there have been a staedy stream of wealthy suitors, all of whom have been knocked back. Really? And we can't find sponsors to pay a couple of hundred quid for a board but people with a few million to invest are 10 a penny. Dear God

Everybody on the board understands your way of interpreting the situation? Really? Strange there’s not many folk agreeing with you then!

To progress out of league 2 you don’t need very large amounts of investment, you need to be well ran and have a decent team. Once again I’ll refer back to Fred Story’s reign, no huge investment, just a professional culture both on and off the pitch. What is it about the FS era that you don’t want to recognise? Why are you talking about the cost of running Preston in the championship when the rest of us are discussing a mid-table league two club?

Are you denying the fact that several interested parties have come forward with an interest in the club over the last few years? Are you denying the fact that every offer put forward has been rejected by the club? You keep on harping on about a potential buyer needing a few million to invest and I keep on telling you this is nonsense as FS proved but once more you continue to ignore this.

We can’t find sponsors because we currently have nobody looking for them, how do you expect the sales and marketing department to flourish when you don’t employ a sales and marketing person??? Also, as a few have already mentioned on here (although you’re probably conveniently ignoring them aswell), businesses don’t want to be associated with the current amateurish organisation that is CUFC. A change of leadership and a change of direction would see fans, businesses and sponsors flocking back. How hard is that to understand.

franksidebottom wrote:

Markovitch wrote: Yes well Andy, any benchmarking against the worst performers will naturally bring the current Government into the conversation. For the last 6 months I've been challenging you to come up with something, anything, they have done well. Any joy?

Frank, I don't have a new way to explain. I think everyone on the board except you, however grudgingly, understands the situation. To progress up the leagues our club needs very large amounts of investment, money our owner doesn't have. I don't understand why you are incapable of grasping it. Bumble has already posted that when we were in the L1 promotion race Fred was concerned about the sums of money involved because he saw the cost of running Preston in the Championship, that was why he was looking to offload the club. What is there about that not to understand?

I have no idea about the marketing guy. Laffy was on the interview panel that hired him, ask Laffy. But everyone seems to agree he didn't generate his salary so the consensus seems to be that no guy is better than the one we were lumbered with.

You still have the Schrodinger's cat situation where the club isn't formally up for sale so no one is coming forward but there have been a staedy stream of wealthy suitors, all of whom have been knocked back. Really? And we can't find sponsors to pay a couple of hundred quid for a board but people with a few million to invest are 10 a penny. Dear God

Everybody on the board understands your way of interpreting the situation? Really? Strange there’s not many folk agreeing with you then!

To progress out of league 2 you don’t need very large amounts of investment, you need to be well ran and have a decent team. Once again I’ll refer back to Fred Story’s reign, no huge investment, just a professional culture both on and off the pitch. What is it about the FS era that you don’t want to recognise? Why are you talking about the cost of running Preston in the championship when the rest of us are discussing a mid-table league two club?

Are you denying the fact that several interested parties have come forward with an interest in the club over the last few years? Are you denying the fact that every offer put forward has been rejected by the club? You keep on harping on about a potential buyer needing a few million to invest and I keep on telling you this is nonsense as FS proved but once more you continue to ignore this.

We can’t find sponsors because we currently have nobody looking for them, how do you expect the sales and marketing department to flourish when you don’t employ a sales and marketing person??? Also, as a few have already mentioned on here (although you’re probably conveniently ignoring them aswell), businesses don’t want to be associated with the current amateurish organisation that is CUFC. A change of leadership and a change of direction would see fans, businesses and sponsors flocking back. How hard is that to understand.

Frank, I don't know why I'm bothering but come on then.


We employed a marketing guy. Remember all the way back to my post. His name was Phil King. So when we employed him how many sponsors came? People were just flooding through the door to invest in club promotions. Were they Frank? Were they?

When Fred took over the club he had to guarantee the overdraft which was required to pay the wages. That means he had to guarantee £1.2m even though the debt didn't exist at that time. So he needed money. In addition football clubs, like toy and whiskey manufacturers have periods of time when they have surplus cash and times when they have cash deficits. During the deficits he had to plug the gap.


I don't doubt that there are weekly offers for the club. I also believe none of those offers had enough finance to run the club.

You are willing argue that supporters would flock back with a change of ownership and running a club at a profit is easy. So put your money where your mouth is, go buy it for a pound. You are so convinced anyone can do it, try it. See how far you get

I Don't get this nonsense of running the club in the Championship bollocks and we couldn't afford to go up its Bullsh*t you tell the players we pay X amount end off, Burton did it

We had a marketing guy, he wasn’t very good so we got shot. We weren’t maximising our financial capabilities as I have eluded to, since he left we have done even less so. Less and less companies want to be associated with an amateurish organisation.

Did FS have to guarantee the money or did he invest it (which is what you say a new owner would have to do)?

Your last sentence is composed entirely of made up claims, the sign of someone who’s struggling. Nowhere have I said the club could be ran at a profit - self sustainable is at break even. Nowhere have I said it would be easy - it would entail a lot of hard work, organisation and above all else professionalism. I’m not convinced anyone can do it, that’s a ludicrous thing to claim, but people have proved in the past that it’s achievable and I’ve got no reason to doubt it can’t be done in the future.

Why don’t you have a go is one of the worst and least thought through arguments someone can come up with.

Do they REALLY want to sell the club? I'm not so sure they do, if they do, they are, I would suspect, looking or expecting too much for it. If you are someone looking to buy a football club, but the club you want to buy is owned by folk who say they want to sell, but in reality don't want to sell, Is it worth wasting your time fighting to try and buy it?Especially when there are other clubs you could probably buy more easily?

Would a new owner need a lot of money? Without doubt, any new owner would need a fair wedge or at least the ability to service the finances required. But how much is this mystery amount? Marko suggests that to climb the leagues we would need a lot of cash, this I agree with to a degree but, how much does getting out of league two require? Obviously some clubs have been able to chuck more at it than others but, it's not always about the cash as Accy have proven. Even in the PL strange things happen, how much did Leicester spend in comparison to City, Chelsea or united? They won the PL though, how did that happen? It goes to show, you don't always have to be the biggest spender, like Accy weren't at our level. We do need an owner who has some cash but more importantly we need an owner who has the right sort of attitude to move the club forward, the three amigos have proven beyond doubt that they do not have this sort of drive and ambition. Things are changing, sort of, since the intervention of EWM, only time will tell where this takes us.

Marketing? Hmmmmm? I know someone who was privy to how things were , marketing wise, when story took over. Their opinion? Slow! That did change, quite clearly, under story but In my opinion has gone backwards since the three amigos got the reins. Did they have any plan to appoint a Marketing guy before Laffy came on the scene? Who knows? Was PK doing a good job? It seems he maybe wasn't or wasn't given the scope to do a good job? Look at the sponsor's we had when story was here and some that came after, Stobart (gone) Virgin Trains (gone) raplaced by?............................................. EWM! who basically have the club by the balls anyhow! That's not a new sponsor attracted to the club, it's the feckin life jacket that's keeping it alive! the point here is, the club does not look attractive to sponsors, why would you associate your business with a club so obviously stagnating? A tough job for any marketeer I would say, but then the leadership at the club hardly look very aspirational or inspiring do they?

Folk suggest that a new Stadium would be the answer, would it? We've no money or enthusiasm from anyone else locally to do this so it ain't gonna happen under this regime. Also, there's no guarantees that a new development will be the golden ticket to anywhere, look at Morecambe for example?

All of the above highlights the uncertainty, the lack of real leadership, the backward attitudes that are prevailing over our club.

Discuss.

To progress out of league 2 you don’t need very large amounts of investment,

You keep on harping on about a potential buyer needing a few million to invest and I keep on telling you this is nonsense

We can’t find sponsors because we currently have nobody looking for them, how do you expect the sales and marketing department to flourish when you don’t employ a sales and marketing person?

A change of leadership and a change of direction would see fans, businesses and sponsors flocking back. How hard is that to understand.


The 4 commandments of Frank. So do it then. Little or no investment, a marketing guy and the businesses/fans will flock back. Your words Frank, not mine. You keep running your mouth so instead of criticising everyone have a go yourself. You've got a house, put it up as collateral, run the business [professionaly and make your million. Do it if its so easy, or are you just going to gob off about what a failure everyone else is?

Like I said Markovitch, “why don’t you have a go?” is a pathetic argument with little meaning. I must remember to use this phrase next time you dare to be critical of a player on a match thread and see what your response is! I’m not criticising everyone or gobbling off about what a failure everyone is, I’m criticising the current custodians and saying what a failure they’ve been at running the club. Surely even you can’t argue they haven’t been a failure!!

Also like I said, it wouldn’t be easy turning the club around hence why I wouldn’t dream of having a go. I haven’t got the expertise, business experience, contacts or balls to undertake such a task. Unfortunately many of these skills are sadly lacking in our current owners too. However this isn’t to say it’s not achievable as previous owners have proved.

Bruntonpasty wrote: Do they REALLY want to sell the club? I'm not so sure they do, if they do, they are, I would suspect, looking or expecting too much for it. If you are someone looking to buy a football club, but the club you want to buy is owned by folk who say they want to sell, but in reality don't want to sell, Is it worth wasting your time fighting to try and buy it?Especially when there are other clubs you could probably buy more easily?

Would a new owner need a lot of money? Without doubt, any new owner would need a fair wedge or at least the ability to service the finances required. But how much is this mystery amount? Marko suggests that to climb the leagues we would need a lot of cash, this I agree with to a degree but, how much does getting out of league two require? Obviously some clubs have been able to chuck more at it than others but, it's not always about the cash as Accy have proven. Even in the PL strange things happen, how much did Leicester spend in comparison to City, Chelsea or united? They won the PL though, how did that happen? It goes to show, you don't always have to be the biggest spender, like Accy weren't at our level. We do need an owner who has some cash but more importantly we need an owner who has the right sort of attitude to move the club forward, the three amigos have proven beyond doubt that they do not have this sort of drive and ambition. Things are changing, sort of, since the intervention of EWM, only time will tell where this takes us.

Marketing? Hmmmmm? I know someone who was privy to how things were , marketing wise, when story took over. Their opinion? Slow! That did change, quite clearly, under story but In my opinion has gone backwards since the three amigos got the reins. Did they have any plan to appoint a Marketing guy before Laffy came on the scene? Who knows? Was PK doing a good job? It seems he maybe wasn't or wasn't given the scope to do a good job? Look at the sponsor's we had when story was here and some that came after, Stobart (gone) Virgin Trains (gone) raplaced by?............................................. EWM! who basically have the club by the balls anyhow! That's not a new sponsor attracted to the club, it's the feckin life jacket that's keeping it alive! the point here is, the club does not look attractive to sponsors, why would you associate your business with a club so obviously stagnating? A tough job for any marketeer I would say, but then the leadership at the club hardly look very aspirational or inspiring do they?

Folk suggest that a new Stadium would be the answer, would it? We've no money or enthusiasm from anyone else locally to do this so it ain't gonna happen under this regime. Also, there's no guarantees that a new development will be the golden ticket to anywhere, look at Morecambe for example?

All of the above highlights the uncertainty, the lack of real leadership, the backward attitudes that are prevailing over our club.

Discuss.

Good post, which I agree with just about everything. As previously mentioned though we are talking about making a decent sized league two club self sustainable, not a championship club or, at this stage, a club moving through the leagues. Although FS did get us through the leagues without having to spend the fortunes Markovitch keeps harping on about.

The best point you make though is the “do the owners REALLY want to sell?” and on what terms - I think this has been the stumbling block all along and the real reason why all interested parties have been given short shrift.

If you dont fancy it Frank Marko can put a word in for me with his mates. Ill buy it for a quid and give it a go.

I'll lend you the quid and put another in the bank for you, just to help tide you over eh!

franksidebottom wrote: Like I said Markovitch, “why don’t you have a go?” is a pathetic argument with little meaning. I must remember to use this phrase next time you dare to be critical of a player on a match thread and see what your response is! I’m not criticising everyone or gobbling off about what a failure everyone is, I’m criticising the current custodians and saying what a failure they’ve been at running the club. Surely even you can’t argue they haven’t been a failure!!

Also like I said, it wouldn’t be easy turning the club around hence why I wouldn’t dream of having a go. I haven’t got the expertise, business experience, contacts or balls to undertake such a task. Unfortunately many of these skills are sadly lacking in our current owners too. However this isn’t to say it’s not achievable as previous owners have proved.

Do you get that toy manufacturers have to borrow large sums of money to build up stock through September, October, November then in January they have great wads of cash? Football clubs have similar seasonal cash fluctuations. You can fund with an overdraft but the bank will need it guaranteed and to do that you need assets for security. Even if Fred's net investment was nil there will have been points in time when he was in for large sums of money.


I do think the club could be run better. The main crime has been the tolerance of under performing managers. Kavanagh, Abbott and Curle were all kept around too long in my book. They have a way to go but I like clibbins, the club is already better run. They lost 700k last year but generated positive cash without raising extra loans, that is not easy to do

I didn’t realise all these toy manufacturers lost a shit load of money each year. Why don’t they just use some of the money they’d been making interest on since the previous year?

"I do think the club could be run better. The main crime has been the tolerance of under performing managers. Kavanagh, Abbott and Curle were all kept around too long in my book".

We wouldn't have needed Curle to get us out of the crap at all if Abbot and then Kavanagh hadn't wasted big money on some terrible signings, their own actions cost them their jobs.

Then you look at who we have bought in recent years, Bennett may not be everyones cup of tea but he is better than Offiong and the show pony that was Kevan Hurst was a massive disappointment for us, not terrible but not worth the cash.