Sunday, 10 October 2021
  211 Replies
  10.5K Visits
In the absence of any satisfactory updates from the club or so-called supporters representatives about succession talks, can anyone explain the details of what’s likely to be involved.

It’s a given that Day is the other party and it’s embarrassing that this is still supposedly confidential information.

We know that the present BOD are bound by their personal guarantees against the PurePay loan.

What happens if a guarantor dies? Presumably the guarantee passes to their estate. But would the guarantee then have to be called in at the point when the estate is distributed?

So are these succession talks to do with Jenkins, Nixon & Pattinson trying to negotiate a settlement that releases them or their respective estates from the guarantees?

And is the glacial progress of the supposed talks to do with the vain hope that “football fortune” ie selling players will reduce the PurePay debt and thereby enable the guarantors to get off more lightly?

Also, how much is each of them in for? Jenkins has significantly more cash than the other two, is he guaranteeing a bigger share of the loan?
1 month ago
I've no reason to doubt you that Day is the other party, but aren't we told that Day has no particular interest in football?

If that is the case, what is the end game? That Purepay takes control of a relatively debt free club and then sells it on to someone who is interested in football?
1 month ago
The terms of the guarantees have not been disclosed. The Purepay loan is to Carlisle United (1921). The Club would have to default on its loan for the guarantees to be called. In practice I would expect AJ and JN to lend money to the Club to avoid default and the PGs being called. This is why the Club cannot be sold for £1 as the buyer could put the Club into administration and AJ and JN would pick up the tab if the loan couldn't be repaid in full. The PGs are probably joint and several which means any guarantor is liable for the whole amount if the others can't pay. Normally a guarantee would pass onto a guarantor's estate if called. The Custodians therefore have a strong interest in getting the loan repaid or restructured so that the PGs can be ripped up.

What we don't know is the potential size of the football fortune from player sales. If we are talking a couple of million pounds over and above the Purepay loan then AJ and JN would probably want to see the B shares paid out so they effectively get back the cash they put into the Club originally through loans. This would be consistent with what JN said at a forum about not looking to make a profit on succession.
1 month ago
Thanks for that explanation, carwash.

The club then is essentially being run at present with the primary purpose of reducing the personal financial liabilities of the BOD.

Day clearly has no real interest in the club, it’s just a small part of his investment portfolio. His money is safe in any event and there is the speculative chance of the asset increasing in value on the basis of football fortune.

Neither he nor the BOD have any interest in resolving succession quickly, he’s in no rush for his money back and the BOD are desperate for football fortune to free them from their guarantees.

Hence the lack of progress, information and “running commentary” on succession.

So the hoped-for windfall is from what, further Henderson add-ons and maybe a fee for Fishburn if he continues his progress?

Neither of those are likely to pay out in the very near future. It’s difficult to see Henderson or anyone else displacing Pickford as England keeper any time soon for example.

Fishburn would have to repeat what he did at Lancaster in our first team to command a fee of any significance, and even then it would mostly be add-ons.

A couple of injuries could scupper the whole thing, then what?
1 month ago
Thanks for that explanation, carwash.

The club then is essentially being run at present with the primary purpose of reducing the personal financial liabilities of the BOD.

Day clearly has no real interest in the club, it’s just a small part of his investment portfolio. His money is safe in any event and there is the speculative chance of the asset increasing in value on the basis of football fortune[i].[/i]

Neither he nor the BOD have any interest in resolving succession quickly, he’s in no rush for his money back and the BOD are desperate for football fortune to free them from their guarantees.

Hence the lack of progress, information and “running commentary” on succession.

So the hoped-for windfall is from what, further Henderson add-ons and maybe a fee for Fishburn if he continues his progress?

Neither of those are likely to pay out in the very near future. It’s difficult to see Henderson or anyone else displacing Pickford as England keeper any time soon for example.

Fishburn would have to repeat what he did at Lancaster in our first team to command a fee of any significance, and even then it would mostly be add-ons.

A couple of injuries could scupper the whole thing, then what?



How has football fortune got any bearing on debt secured over fixed assets ?
1 month ago


How has football fortune got any bearing on debt secured over fixed assets ?


How doesn't it?
1 month ago
Sick to death about all this ongoing farce over succession is just like the billionaire farce it goes on and on with no end result, while the club continues to slide into obscurity.
And if you question the trust who according to their own blurb about protecting the club about what's going on you don't get any answers.
1 month ago


How has football fortune got any bearing on debt secured over fixed assets ?


How doesn't it?


Because it is not a fixed asset as described on the charge.

"Persons entitled
The Edinburgh Woollen Mill Limited

Brief description
Brunton park, warwick road, carlisle, and land on the west of brunton park, warwick road, carlisle and land on the north side of warwick road, carlisle under title numbers CU119715, CU218033 and CU288354.
Contains fixed charge.
Contains floating charge.
Contains negative pledge."
1 month ago


How has football fortune got any bearing on debt secured over fixed assets ?


How doesn't it?


Because it is not a fixed asset as described on the charge.

"Persons entitled
The Edinburgh Woollen Mill Limited

Brief description
Brunton park, warwick road, carlisle, and land on the west of brunton park, warwick road, carlisle and land on the north side of warwick road, carlisle under title numbers CU119715, CU218033 and CU288354.
Contains fixed charge.
Contains floating charge.
Contains negative pledge."


Oh I see, you were making a somewhat pedantic point about how I worded that sentence.

You're not suggesting then that if the Saudis made a Fishburn their first signing for £25m tomorrow it would have no bearing on the solvency of the club, its attractiveness to Day as potential owner in waiting and the ease with which the present BOD could sell up and clear out?

Or that it is not the waiting for that highly speculative windfall which is the real reason for the glacial progress of succession talks and lack of information coming out of the club.
1 month ago


How has football fortune got any bearing on debt secured over fixed assets ?


How doesn't it?


Because it is not a fixed asset as described on the charge.

"Persons entitled
The Edinburgh Woollen Mill Limited

Brief description
Brunton park, warwick road, carlisle, and land on the west of brunton park, warwick road, carlisle and land on the north side of warwick road, carlisle under title numbers CU119715, CU218033 and CU288354.
Contains fixed charge.
Contains floating charge.
Contains negative pledge."


Oh I see, you were making a somewhat pedantic point about how I worded that sentence.

You're not suggesting then that if the Saudis made a Fishburn their first signing for £25m tomorrow it would have no bearing on the solvency of the club, its attractiveness to Day as potential owner in waiting and the ease with which the present BOD could sell up and clear out?

Or that it is not the waiting for that highly speculative windfall which is the real reason for the glacial progress of succession talks and lack of information coming out of the club.



No, I was simply trying to find out how football fortune and the charge over the Club's assets maybe linked.
1 month ago
Thanks for that explanation, carwash.

The club then is essentially being run at present with the primary purpose of reducing the personal financial liabilities of the BOD.

Day clearly has no real interest in the club, it’s just a small part of his investment portfolio. His money is safe in any event and there is the speculative chance of the asset increasing in value on the basis of football fortune.

Neither he nor the BOD have any interest in resolving succession quickly, he’s in no rush for his money back and the BOD are desperate for football fortune to free them from their guarantees.

Hence the lack of progress, information and “running commentary” on succession.

So the hoped-for windfall is from what, further Henderson add-ons and maybe a fee for Fishburn if he continues his progress?

Neither of those are likely to pay out in the very near future. It’s difficult to see Henderson or anyone else displacing Pickford as England keeper any time soon for example.

Fishburn would have to repeat what he did at Lancaster in our first team to command a fee of any significance, and even then it would mostly be add-ons.

A couple of injuries could scupper the whole thing, then what?



Guessing it would be the sale of Henderson, Branthwaite or perhaps McCarron
1 month ago
Nixon:Anybody been in touch wanting to buy the club and pay us off?
Jenkins: No
DIY shop owner:No
Nixon:OK. Same time next month?
1 month ago
The terms of the guarantees have not been disclosed. The Purepay loan is to Carlisle United (1921). The Club would have to default on its loan for the guarantees to be called. In practice I would expect AJ and JN to lend money to the Club to avoid default and the PGs being called. This is why the Club cannot be sold for £1 as the buyer could put the Club into administration and AJ and JN would pick up the tab if the loan couldn't be repaid in full. The PGs are probably joint and several which means any guarantor is liable for the whole amount if the others can't pay. Normally a guarantee would pass onto a guarantor's estate if called. The Custodians therefore have a strong interest in getting the loan repaid or restructured so that the PGs can be ripped up.

What we don't know is the potential size of the football fortune from player sales. If we are talking a couple of million pounds over and above the Purepay loan then AJ and JN would probably want to see the B shares paid out so they effectively get back the cash they put into the Club originally through loans. This would be consistent with what JN said at a forum about not looking to make a profit on succession.


If the club becomes bankrupt the fixed charge will fix on the stadium etc. Any excess debt will become an unsecured creditor. The future transfer income is contingent income and that will be used to pay creditors before any guarantees are called in. As long as we get 2m the guarantees won't be called in. You can only use administration if you are just about bankrupt, we had £500k in cash in July, so admin isn't an option.

The rather odd situation is that if the transfer income is greater than the £2m due what happens to it. What AJ wants and what we want is that it goes to the club. I don't believe Day has any desire to collect it, he doesn't need it. Jenkins' sons would probably want their cut if they could get it, and there is no shortage of local businessmen who, while professing their love for the club, would see it as easy money. Day therefore needs to guarantee to take on the club and not sell it, at least in the short term. I suspect he can't be arsed.
Clear as day there is no succession plan. Otherwise Jenkins etc. would not be taking part in a vote on a new manager. Sad sad times...
1 month ago
We are speculating about how the personal guarantees will operate. My view is that they are a backstop if there is no other way of getting the loan repaid but they could operate like Amigo guarantees. Purepay isn't likely to want to put the Club into administration by demanding its money back instantly. The Club doesn't have readily saleable assets. However Purepay could decide that it wants a formal plan of repayment of say £50k a month. The Club has enough cash for the first 10 months of repayments but after that the Club will say it can't pay. Just like with Amigo (as I understand it) the guarantors will get a phone call and they will be expected to make the monthly repayments to Purepay becoming unsecured creditors themselves of the Club. It seems that nothing has been decided yet which is why NC is waiting to be told what to do with the cash pile.
1 month ago
And look at the state of Amigo-shambles of a company feeding off the poor with 49.9pc APR on guaranteed loans.I’m hoping they go bust and quick
1 month ago
Whether Purepay gets to decide or not, in principle depends on the terms that they took over the loan under. But it's all moot. If Purepay say I want it all tomorrow, the guarantors will refuse to pay because the club has contingent income, guarantors are payers of last resort when the club has no assets, but it has assets, future transfer income. The club will set up a payment plan, and they will be paid when transfer income comes in. The Directors have to act reasonably and in the best interests of the club, if they tell Purepay you'll get paid that will be enough for any court.

The bigger question is why is nothing being paid off now, and in the next year? We can dream that AJ has persuaded Day to part with 2m, let's see what actually happens.
1 month ago
It’s embarrassing

They have clearly ‘decided’ that PD is their man-no choice really given those PGs are imprinted on their foreheads.

Problem is PD appears to have gone cold-why not when he doesn’t appear to like football.

So locked in permanent suspense-just like with Kirdi.

The solution is the football fortune-carve it out for PD to repay him, but that reduces the value of the club to firewood-not a great selling point.
1 month ago
He could have been even more damning and say fans are sick and tired of the shambles holding the club back calling things different names as if theses lot are special.

Succession is not one of theses names

We all want a full buy out leaving the horsemen with no connections to the club in any capacity at all..harsh but needs done after all the crap we have had to put up with
1 month ago
JC does, to give him credit, allude to why we have succession not a takeover. Jenkins is clinging on like a limpet to his board seat. The only way to get him to engage in the process is by saying things like "Andrew, you won't be here forever - we have to think what happens when...." So we end up with protracted succession talks which might shift the centre of gravity of the Club ownership but won't result in a root and branch clear-out of the boardroom.

The upturn in football fortune if anything has slowed the process down as the prospect of imminent financial disaster has receded. In fact potential windfalls on the horizon have triggered hopes of exiting gracefully and with a slice of the windfall.
1 month ago
Any windfalls are frittered away into thin air.....nowts changed
1 month ago
1 month ago
Oldham on Football Focus today a lot of familiarity so credit to their fans. But could also be worse?
1 month ago


Another smokescreen to deflect any possible grief they might receive today.

I'm so [censored] bored with their constant delaying tactics, it's not worth listening to their shite any more. Just [censored] off now!!
1 month ago
.

There are no replies made for this post yet.
Be one of the first to reply to this post!
The Football League Paper