TOPIC: Investment Talks..

To all concerned:- The Club, CUOSC & Investors. Don't you think it's time to put a deadline on this so hopefully New people can come in?
CUOSC - The current regime will never include you in anything meaningful apart from wiping their backsides.
Custodians - Give your Billionaire a deadline, no offer then he moves on. There are others wanting to take the reigns and do something.
Investor(s) - Come out and let the fans get behind you if you are for real. The supporters of Carlisle United will come back in their droves if you give us something to believe in.

It is as simple as that. Get in a room and sort this sorry mess out as it stands.

From a True Blue and on behalf of all True Blues.

I see Accy Stanley have just secured new investment. I know because they told their fans via the medium of the media. Easy.

there's even talk of someone with a real name and everything taking over Northampton Town, £10m debt n all (they are hoping to negotiate that down)

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-34646154


Meanwhile our lying board have nowt to show nearly six months after turning investment down and making up a story about a billionaire.

Well done cretins.

And the talks about blue yonder are nearly as old as brunton park now and we still don't know who, where, when and how. I'm so excited.

Surely it can only be called "investment talks" if they're talking to somebody.

They probably talk to each other.

In my humble opion they are scared shitless to let go of the club. Any genuine buyer/investor would want to see the books. I leave this to your own imagination

For what it is worth, I am absolutely certain there is nothing untoward going on regarding the accounts, and accounting procedures at the club. I have absolutely no doubt the club and the owners would quite easily be able to allow anybody to scrutinise their accounting records fully.

As I said in my humble opinion etc maybe I'm being over suspicious but something doesnt seem quite right. Maybe we shud have a meet up with a few more fans. I@m to be found in the beehive every home game. wud be nice to put a face to someone and others who are quite elequent and supportive of our club

Can anyone remember the open day for blue yonder? The open day told us nothing and gave nothing away or said anything about the project. If they won't do it on an open day they never will!

All this talk and no news is a waste of time. I'm 41 now and would like to see progress with my football club before I get too old.
Any excitement has just drained away now. All this talk started about 3 or 4 years ago. I don't want to get to 45 and still be hoping for good news. Life is too short.

It's ok Mullen will give us mushrooms an update he said it would be public by now!

I went to the open day when I fell out with Nixon he was lying then. Relax I.m 71 your only a boy comparatively speaking

Moorlad wrote:
Agreed, and that's never really been in question. The problem here is nothing more than stubborn pig-headedness, and an archaic attitude of simply refusing to entertain anyone who doesn't fit in with the Old Boys' blazers and ties brigade.

if you really want to scrutinise the accounts you should be able to find them on here www.gov.uk/government/organisations/companies-house

beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00175280

Be four years in mid-November since the stadium plans were announced.

Quite interesting that in 2011 we made a reasonably large profit according theses figure but the one given in the media was far lower
www.newsandstar.co.uk/carlisle-united/la...ling-crowds-1.892030

s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/document-api-...xsVWVBvXUg2MrJsQU%3D

Waltero wrote:
Ok, I don't want you getting to 75 with no more news.

I'd rather have my ashes scattered around BP than have them thrown on top of an architects blueprint of a shoebox stadium plan in a filing cabinet somewhere in John nixons cellar

bruntonpete wrote:
Was that the one that was incredibly short notice and on a Thurs Morning or some ridiculous time?

CCU wrote:
I seem to remember Happyblue was won over by the presentation.

You can't have talks, investment or otherwise, with someone you've made up.

Well, you can, but technically if you really believe that you're having conversations with people who don't exist, it's called schizophrenia. Or religion. Or lying. Pick your own favourite explanation.

Dancingbear wrote:
i didnt even go,

£1.2 million is proving to be a handy amount for Stanley. Local guy. A fan too. If only we had had someone like that!

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34665949

Rsblue wrote:
I didn't give a date! But something will be public soon. Not about blue yonder but AJs shares.

I went to that open day. Asked AJ one question in that we're the council in favour to the development. Got told oh yes, well that was a lie.

Happyblue wrote:
Apologies. Must have just been you were keen on the idea of moving

Why do people think that the lapping consortium was the best way forward when none of us knows what all the offer entailed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

chopper wrote:

You'll never know the fine details of any takeover but a quick look through past topics should give enough away to tell you this would have been a very exciting move for the club and fans! That and the fact he actually engaged with fans as opposed to adopting a siege mentality with the occasional leaked f*cking twitter pictures.

Far better than the shit the custodians have comtinually spouted for 6+ years!

Morning chopper

I have to take issue with your statement here-my restructure proposal was actually circulated to the general public around the time of the Trust vote-in full and unabbreviated.Nothing changed of any note during the DD process ,which of course came to an abrupt halt in late May.

Taking up the earlier accounting point by Moorlad,the financial DD was done at my cost and threw up no real surprises-certainly nothing which would have resulted in a renegotiation with the present stakeholders.As I said at the time,the accounts were very clean and tidy and my real focus was on how to deal with the debts owed to AJ and Pioneer after FS wrote his loan off.You will recall that I wanted to clean up the balance sheet such that monies invested would remain in the Club,not used to settle old debts.

Hope this clarifies

Andrew

The Lapping plan was very open, even up to and including an overhaul of the back office, which is a part of what upset the custodians Chopper. That is why there is so much laughing at the dinosaurs each new time they go ahead with one of his proposals and pretend it's their own. The major thing with the shares was quite widely available to everyone, the fact that the investment was to be £1.26m was available as was how the structure was going to be made up. Also it was commonly known that this was to take it away from a reliance on the benevolence of a single individual and spread the load. It was out there right away that the cash was, sort of, rainy day money. It was, in fact, the most open proposal it could possibly be.

I'm pleased with what you have to say about the company's accounts Laffy, because that is exactly what I expected. We can say what we like about the three of them (and I probably do more than most) but one thing they certainly aren't doing is robbing the place, or not accounting properly. Whatever antbody thinks of them, they are three basically honest men, financially.

Reading this thread and seeing other clubs getting investment etc.and thinking what could of been and what them idiots have done in our boardroom has ruined my day,I am [censored] sick to death of this shit. They're a pair of absolute bellends and need to pack up and [censored] off.

Correct-I did say repeatedly that the books were clean and tidy,no black holes,etc

But that wasn't the point-with £2.5m of debt pre the FS write off,the Club was uninvestable-equity essentially under water so to speak.The reason AJ found himself putting the money in as loan was largely down to the Trust negative control point-the protections afforded by the Agreements ,signed for the right reasons, had become a block to external money and to their credit,the Trust recognised the point and dealt with it to accommodate my proposals.

One only has to look at Northampton to see how dysfunctional a debt laden balance sheet can be for any business.

A clean debt free balance sheet opens the door to long term equity investment from investors who can safely invest in the knowledge that their money isn't walking out through a revolving door.

Anyway,all consigned to history now

The problem being Laffy, that the club is now building towards that level of debt again, right now. At June 14 the amount owed to Jenkins was over £1.3m and I'm fairly certain he will have needed to invest substantially more during the past year as well. Looking at your valuation where £1.26m was 45% of the club, his loan is now significantly more than the value of his holding (37.315%, or £1.045m). Where does the club go from here?

Not my problem Moorlad!!

Actually made me giggle.

Laffy wrote:
Agreed however one could argue that as fans it's all of our problems.

Insolvency, that is where we are headed. Followed by a re-structure where the single biggest debtor becomes the largest shareholder in return for writing off the debts. Oh, and the assets chucked in, in exchange for some working capital.................

I don't think the debt will have increased I actually reackon at the moment we'll be running on a good profit, because of the Potts , Dempsey and Liverpool income which will be at least 700k plus we were not that far off the attendence targets last season , also don't think we are near insolvency as that only happens when your assets are less than our debts and as shown on companies house we are no were near being in that position.

A number of issues with your post.

Firstly the money for the transfers and the Liverpool match are in the current year's accounts, the previous year end was 30 June 2015. That year made a loss, it will have been a cash loss as well as a deficit on the P & L account. The cash will have had to be covered from somewhere, that will have been Jenkins or Pioneer, so the debt will have increased.

Secondly the auditors have included a going concern paragraph in the accounts.

Thirdly the club has net assets (rather than net liabilities) only because of the revaluation of Brunton Park, and the share premium account. From a trading point of view it is completely insolvent. There was a loss in the year to 2014 of £344,318 meaning the retained loss of the club is now (or was then) £2,152,066. So, if Brunton Park (and the other properties) is not worth the £5,719,438 the accounts show (and it depends on what some developer might pay) the club is in bother.

The real point though is, all that money you mention (£700,000) will be taken up covering the losses, on general trading, for this season and possibly last season. Financially those accounts are horrible and the loans to Jenkins are unsustainable, we will have huge problems in the future unless it is sorted, and soon.

I really don't think you've read those accounts properly.

In the end, every hundred fans the analogue three have pissed off means a missing £46,000 (23 * 20 * 100) a season

They've pissed off about THREE THOUSAND

You do da math

I agree

The Club's main asset is its ground but without a ground,you don't play football.Brunton Park is therefore sacrosanct in terms of ownership but it should be used to generate revenue beyond 90 mins once a fortnight.

Investors in clubs invest for a stake in the franchise,not as a property play.Those who have eg Ron Noades at Palace,ended in disaster for all.

The issue for any club is cash-and as an accountant,I always look at the cashflow statement in the accounts.Tells you all you need to know.With Carlisle,AJ has been around to cover cash flow shortfalls-good job he was as banks don't lend to Clubs in the lower leagues in a meaningful way.

AJ also signs the Going Concern statements in the accounts as auditors will want certainty of cash solvency for 12 months beyond the accounts-not to be undertaken lightly,least of all with a football club in the lower divisions.

Laffy wrote:
Hence your proposal was to address any outstanding debt and hold the invested £1.2m on the balance sheet for a "rainy day scenario", as Moorlad stated above?

Laffy's entirely right, cash is king, these kinds of operations are only able to run if they have the cash to cover their costs. The unfortunate thing is that the expenses at the moment far outstrip the income, and of course the shortfall has to be found somewhere, and that is Jenkins at the moment (I feel sorry for him for that, to be fair). There are courses of action to remedy this, put most simply, cut expenses, increase revenue or a combination of both. Cutting of expenses can still be done, I'm sure with efficiencies in the way the place is run, but that will not save hundreds of thousands a year, so the main thing has to be increase the revenue.

In order to increase revenues the club will have to get more money from existing revenue streams, and create new ones, which is why Laffy says the place needs to be used more than one day every two weeks. To increase the cash from existing streams the club has to offer a better product, and that (as we've seen) does not just mean have a better team, playing better football. It means having a better product on offer all round, the whole matchday experience has to be better. These are things that they have not even thought about addressing until Laffy himself rattled their cages early this year, now it may be too little, too late.

I tell you what, We learn more about the health and well being of the club from Moorlad and Laffy than we get from the darklords. I'm not happy about our current ownership and plight but it's good to know that there are people on our side who have a handle on the job to keep us informed.

Glad you think so mate.

Just shout up if I start using jargon that's difficult to understand, I tend to get carried away. To be fair, for people who have little experience of reading company accounts they can appear very complicated. I'm quite fortunate in that I have audited football club accounts in the past (not this club I should add).

Moorlad wrote:
Cleator Moor Celtic?

Yes-most of the new cash was to be held as rainy day reserves,to be utilised on essentials but with a broad aim to top up from windfalls outside the normal budget.At present,AJ provides that comfort blanket.

of course,the thrust of the plan was to improve the whole business to make it self sustaining and not reliant on benevolence-otherwise,you might as well be a charity

chesterviabothel wrote:
No.

Clubs down south, specifically in the Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire areas.

Think Moorlad and Laffy's very valid points demonstrate the sticking point though.
AJ and JN and SP have shares that have a value and they are expected to give that value away.
Especially in the case of AJ, this is probably unacceptable due to the sums involved.
It's been asked before, and I have never seen it answered, but did/would Laffy's group try to buy the shares. Surely an offer to buy the shares, instead of the equity loans (probably not the correct terminology) should be the way forward.

I'm sure Laffy will correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole idea behind his plan was to invest the money in the club and not be used to pay off current debts. FS waived his loan and negotiations were in place with AJ to come to an agreement re his debts - whether AJ was ever seriously considering this as an option is open to debate.

The £1.26m plan was to buy newly issued shares. The holdings of some of the other owners was going to be diluted (the trust was to go down to 10% for example). Jenkins would still have his loans outstanding. Any shareholder could sell his/her shares in proportion to existing owners first of all and then outside the ownership. Remember what the current owners paid for their shares (except for the trust). Some of the new shares issued to Jenkins would have offset some of the cash owed to him too, then if he had wished to sell further shares he could have, firstly to existing shareholders.

Both of you are right, but rightly or wrongly, the custodians have a valuable asset which they are not willing to give away.
What they paid for them is neither here nor there.
How many on here (honestly) would give £1m or more to Carlisle if it was there retirement nest egg. I know I wouldn't.
I don't think Laffy would if it was his only asset (which it is not obviously), as demonstrated by the proposed deal he made.