TOPIC: Something else that's getting on my tits...

[censored] junior doctors going on strike!

Set of [censored] !!!

Youll be pleased to know Edwards has scored for Notts;)

Mashie Niblick wrote:
You should go for a pint with thesilentone

As long as he's well enough and doesn't need to get in doctors.

The new proposals meant they would be worse off.so quite rightly they are standing their ground

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More hours for less money than they get know, can see why they are striking

To be honest if I needed urgent medical care I don't want someone who is overworked and tired looking after me.

At least the MPs got a payrise of 10% this year as remember we are all in it together.

10m for the refit of an RAF plane so Cameron will have his own jet.

Lufbrablue wrote:
Not be long til they are getting paid top dollar (and rightfully so) as well as cramming in all the hours God sends doing private work... Won't be tired & overworked then tho eh? [censored]! Hope none of you lot need one while they're out on strike!

Hmmm, let me see. If somebody said to you, i'm going to change your contract so that Mon-Fri till 10pm and Sat till 7pm is standard hours then I wouldn't be happy. If Jeremy Chunt then said, yeah we can talk about it but only if you agree to x, y and z then I wouldn't be happy. If I was told if I wouldn't agree to it then i'd have it imposed on me then I wouldn't be happy.

Let's be clear here, Junior Drs aren't going to endanger patients safety. They'll still be providing emergency care. In the circumstances, is it that big a deal if Mabel has to wait another week for her hip replacement?

I just hope that none of us or our families ever need A&E.; The government has just introduced a cap on medical recruitment agency hourly charges which effectively means agencies can't now supply doctors to A&E; as the doctors on their books won't work for even the maximum rate. There was already a desperate shortage of doctors willing to work in A&E; probably because of the stress and abuse they receive from drunken patients. In my view there is no way the government can now staff the country's A&E; departments if the agencies aren't able to provide staff and doctors aren't prepared to work there. I can see the government being forced to pay extra money to A&E; doctors just to maintain a basic service.

Realistically, junior doctors going on strike for a couple of days is not going to have that much impact on hospitals or patients compared to the potential staffing shortages from this cap on agency charges. Midwifery is another area with a chronic shortage of qualified staff. Agency midwives have been among the highest paid medical staff in the country. Almost certainly now we are going to have newspaper stories about hospitals having problems keeping their maternity units running.

I agree with the broad principle that the NHS needs re-shaping so it can continue in existence but I'm convinced the government doesn't know what it is doing.

The wife (who's a nurse) told me a story recently about the Tories not having a clue. I know it's nurses and not Drs but the point holds.

Manchester Royal Infirmary is a pretty huge hospital for central Manchester and sometimes struggles to get nurses (it's way, way worse in the south) and it is only going to get worse now Nurses will not get a grant but only a loan (every nurse needs a degree nowadays).

Anyway, as is standard practice in the NHS, they applied for a bunch of work visas for nurses and then scheduled a recruitment drive in India. There was a problem and it was re-scheduled for a month or so later. They went out, recruited a bunch of Nurses and came back happy that they had enough nurses to support the hospital. Realised that the visa's were going to expire and applied to have them renewed. The problem is, the Tories had won a re-election in the meantime and one of their policies was every immigrant had to have the potential to earn £32k within 5 years or whatever. All the visas were refused.

Honestly, this govt. has no idea. We're struggling to recruit enough nurses so they scrap the grant and limit their increment/pay rise to 1% and then wonder why there is not enough nurses.

My step-mother is a Matron down south and seems to spend more time in Portugal/Ireland/Greece/Spain trying to find nurses than actually nursing. Why wipe patients shitty arses at 2am on a Sat morning when you can earn just as much as a Barista working 9-5?

I have a lot more sympathy with the nurses than the junior doctors to be honest.... as pointed out above. Yes they work long hours... but they have a hell of a lot to learn and the more they experience early in their career the better. As pointed out above many senior doctors do similar hours as junior doctors... the difference is that they aren't complaining as they are getting paid very handsomely for doing private work.. Even as junior doctors they are well paid... and as pointed out above, rightly so.... the average Trainee doctor gets £23,500k per year rising as they gain experience as a Trainee up to a max of £65k. Once qualified the average hospital consultant earns £74k - £100k and an average partner in a GP practice earns £103k per year. Yes they have to work hard when training but the ultimate rewards are huge. A balance has to be met between tiredness and gaining as much practical experience as possible.

The system can't remain the way it is though... the facts show you are much more likely to die at a weekend, when there are way fewer doctors on duty.... that is not a coincidence. The NHS should have the same care available 7 days a week. I don't care if it isn't popular with doctors who don't want to give up their weekends... that situation can't be allowed to continue. They get very well paid for the inconvenience. This was brought to light for me recently when I had to rush my wife to an emergency center with optical cellulitus... a potentially dangerous condition. The 24 hour emergency center we were advised to go to did not have a single doctor on duty because it was a Sunday... how is that acceptable? We could see the roster and there were 7 rostered on for the Monday. That kind of situation needs to be addressed. I don't know what the answer is and the whole NHS seems to be a total mess but it can't remain the way it is. To answer the question above... it does bloody matter to Mabel, who is in agony with her hip, that she has to wait an extra couple of weeks.

carwash wrote:
The Great British public could help by not turning up at A&E; with toothache,coughs etc.

High Street wrote: That is 100% true.... I like the New Zealand system... they charge you something like £20 for your first consultation with the doctor and then any subsequent treatment for that or related conditions is free. totally stop's those numpties who waste NHS time by visiting A&E; every time they fart.

I think there are some very good explanations for the high death rates at weekends. I have heard of Polish doctors working Monday to Friday in Polish hospitals for £5k a year but flying to the UK on Friday afternoon then fitting in 2 or 3 12 hour shifts over the weekend at up to £100 an hour in A&E; before flying back to Poland on Sunday night. Such is the desperation of hospitals to find staff, particularly to work in A&E;, that the NHS has ended up being thoroughly exploited by some of the 'short-notice' agencies. So I can understand what the government is trying to do with the agency cap, and it is phasing it in so that the winter is out of the way before it really bites next April. However where will the government find the necessary staff without backtracking and offering huge uplifts for existing staff to work in unpopular areas.

I cannot understand why we still have a shortage of nurses. For over 10 years we haven't been training enough and have had to look to the Philippines and more recently as Armo says Greece, Spain and Portugal to fill the shortfall. I have two nieces who are nurses but they have chosen to be district nurses rather than work in hospitals. Either we pay hospital nurses the salary that the job deserves or we may as well start dismantling the NHS before it falls apart.

But they go A+E as they can't get in at their GP...

Needs completely sorted but we're too far gone to rescue it!

Seems like the NHS is willing to pay much higher rates for agency staff than their own.

Also recruiting from abroad shows that they have not been training up enough staff. Have these other countries got a surplus of health workers who are not needed in their own countries? Is their training up to standard?

Northumbrian wrote: Lies, damn lies and all that. There's a lot more to it than that. If you have a bad stomach and it's not too bad, you'd perhaps wait until Monday to got to A&E; (after discovering you'd of needed to of booked three weeks earlier to see your GP) whereas if it's absolute agony then you'd of been straight down to A&E; regardless. Of course, if your in absolute agony then it's much more likely that what's wrong with you is a lot more serious.
If somebody is very poorly and perhaps needs palliative care, it's virtually impossible to get admitted at a weekend compared to during the week. They show up in the statistics.
I'd put money on rates of death not changing that much even if all these changes were brought in.

As i'm sure you are well aware. there are plenty of procedures and consultations where people are in no pain whatsoever and there would be no difference clinically in waiting a further week. I know a fair few Drs and know for a fact that they would never strike if it had the slightest chance of affecting somebodies outcome.

I'm very sorry about what happened to your wife but that isn't necessarily the fault of the Drs. It's the hospitals responsibility to ensure that there are enough suitable staff available. There's a big difference.

I read somewhere about hospitals in London having to employ "Clinical Advice Directors". Basically, a lot of immigrants have no concept of the NHS, never register for a Dr and then, when have a minor ailment, turn up at A&E; as they have no idea on what they should be doing.

That's not immigrant bashing but just goes to show some of the problems hospitals are facing.

Flatcap wrote:
Hospitals don't set Nurses pay, the government does. The Hospital also get's in deep shit if they don't have the minimum staffing levels on wards. They have *no choice* but to go for bank staff. Believe me, every hospital hates having to bring in bank staff.

Northumbrian wrote: Iceland does the same. We desperately need to introduce it here, only way to save the NHS in my opinion. Brings in revenue from the charge and decreases costs by cutting out the necessary use. Double win. It's a no brainer really but certain sections of the media and society won't let it happen. Talk about biting off their noses to spite their face.

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Armo wrote: you probably have some fair points there... But I don't give a damn whose responsibility it is...weekend coverage should be exactly the same as week day coverage... People get ill 7 days a week. If that means that the government have to force doctors to work weekends then so be it. I have very limited sympathy for a group of people who average £37k whilst they are still training , moaning about pay to be honest.

Luckily my wife was okay... Thanks for your kind words there. No thanks to to NHS though. I am a great believer in the NHS principle... But frankly it is a shambles and can't continue in its current form. To be honest they may as well scrap it and move to an insurance based system like the rest of the world. I went straight out and took out private medical cover after that little incident, even though I hate the fact I had to do that.

loser wrote:
Gotta say I disagree. Many illnesses, cancer being a prime example, are best dealt with when caught in the early stages. If you're a tight arse like me, and are suffering from say, persistent headaches, you'll think "ah its probably nothing" pop a few paracetamol, and then only go to the doctors when its too late.

CUFCMike, absolutely true about most cancers being spotted too late but the GP is the first course of action here Persistent headaches could be a brain tumour or aneurysm, blood when when you pee could be bladder or kidney cancer, blood or discharge when you poo could be piles or something much worse. It is essential to go and book an appointment at the GP at the first sign and badger him for the correct tests and an MRI or CT scan.

I personally think private medicine is going to increase massively in scale over the next few years as the NHS crumbles. It costs me £80 for an appointment with a private GP at the private hospital around the corner from where I live and he is superb. About £300 for a full health screen every couple of years. Most people can afford that if they care about their health. Pay as you go private healthcare is very affordable now for a lot of people but it does mean that the NHS is going to become the second class alternative for non-emergency care.

www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/ae-wa...xperts-2015010694135

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cufcmike wrote: On the flip side Mike if everyone who had a simple throat infection stopped going to the doctor's, or paid when they did, you'd be more likely to get a referral for persistent headaches as the NHS would actually be able to afford it. Not everyone should have to pay obviously but while a one off payment of 20 quid may seem a lot to some folk in certain circumstances it really is just pennies where your health is concerned.

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You do know the new Jr Dr contracts has nothing to do with a "7 day NHS"? Jeremy Chunt is conflating the two. New contract negotiations began in 2012 and the 7 day NHS idea came about after a report came out late 2013/early 2014.

Also, this whole idea of "Junior" Drs is a bit of a misnomer. Junior Drs start on something like £23k after a 5 or 6 year degree and that compares unfavorably witth other similar professions such as Graduate Lawyers and Accountants. Everything up to and including registrar is classed as being a junior Dr. Believe me, I would be more than happy to be seen by a registrar most of the time.

End of the day, a new graduate would take a bare minimum of 16 years to no longer be classed as a junior Dr.

loser wrote:
At my Mrs hospital, they had to take the alcohol hand gel out of A&E; as all the allcys were drinking it.

How is it this conversation only crops up when the tories are in government

langwathbybridge wrote: Probs cos the previous Labour gov pisses all the money away on non-jobs and red tape and someone has to rein it all back in.

The Tories could be in power for 50 years and their a*se-licking followers would still be playing the "it's Labour's fault" card.

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loser wrote:
Remember when they said in 2010 the defecit would be gone by 2015? In Football, if a manager said he'd win the league title in 5 years time, but instead, his team finished miles away from it, would he be given a new five year contract? (By our BOD, he might be actually)

langwathbybridge wrote:
Er because they are to blame. You have two choices, you can spend money on training British people to be nurses to help people or you can blow 100bn on nuclear weapons which deter feck all judging by the last couple of months. You can leave Syria (why are we in [censored] Syria???) alone or you can spend 1.9bn to save us from cyber attack. Where is the logic in Cameron's actions? Why has he spent 80m in Syria trying to get rid of Assad? Man is a complete tube.
We have the largest debt to GDP of ny major country, why? Because Osborne, who keeps his money offshore, is a moron. We are absolutely screwed with these cretins in power
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

Wrong Figures and even using yours, we still aren't #1. Muricka is

Try Public Debt, we're 13th
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt
BTW, your beloved party caused most of it.


100bn over 20/25 years is feck all, and worth every penny.

feckwittery wrote:
If I remember, it was the irresponsible banking sector that caused the crash, and only the intervention of the Labour party with quantitive easing that pulled it out of the mire. I may also add that the capitalist system in its present state will go into melt down every 20 or so years because of the greed of the banking system

loser wrote:
Magaret Thatcher was last Prime Minister 25 years ago, but that doesn't stop left wing folk blaming her for all of Britain's ills.

Major was forgettable go be fair.

Let's all be grateful that the Labour numpties are history for at least a generation. EVERYTHING is better without them, including the NHS.

Ahh the NHS the political gift that keeps on giving!
Playing the blame game with each other only disguises the fact that neither party seems to have the ability to successfully run the thing.

langwathbybridge wrote: And let us remember who was in power at the time of the crisis... and was supposed to ensure that financial markets were correctly regulated to prevent them from acting irresponsibly... who was also supposed to take appropriate action to make sure the economy and housing markets didn't overcook... and was supposed to ensure that personal debt levels stayed within workable limits. Labour aren't all to blame obviously, but you can't just detach them from responsibility for the banking sector when they were in power. They had ample time to introduce the required checks and measures to have controlled the banking system and protected us from the worst of the crisis... instead they jumped on the bandwagon, allowed the economy to overcook, allowed individuals to get into ridiculous levels of personal debt debt, allowed the bankers to get away with murder... this was the era of the 110% mortgage remember.... and this resulted in us crashing as hard as anybody in the world. I can't believe I voted for them.

Do you think the Conservatives would have put stricter controls on the banking industry, when many of their donors are big city bankers?

Armo wrote: Yes I do know they are different issues Armo... however, they are getting lumped together by the doctors themselves and the media, which was why I commented on that specific case. As for the point about pay... the average Trainee doctor is on £37k per year, which is pretty decent in anybodies books. I'm not sure you can legitimately compare them to lawyers or accountants as Trainee doctors are all Public sector and the majority of the other two occupations aren't, although they do have some. Really you should be comparing them with other public sector workers like Teachers, Police or Nurses.