TOPIC: Luke Joyce

Not going to bleat on about "unseen work" or other such phrases, but his pass for Wyke's goal was class last night. 2 assists in 2 games from him. He had a shaky start to the season (similar to Raynes) but for me he's now an established part of the squad. I feel central midfield is a tough place this season, as Hery, Kennedy and Dicker are all fan favourites, so any mistakes from Joyce, and people will say "so and so should be playing instead." There are some games where Joyce is more effective than others, but as well as his assists, I have seen him make plenty of blocks this season that could potentially be detrimental to his chances of having children! Good to see, long may it continue.

To be honest Joyce is noticed more when he isn't there than when he is. That is not to say the work he does is unseen, but because none of the other central midfield players is prepared to do the work he does. I think he's playing well, he's not going to be making great passes like Dicker, or getting up and down the field, at speed, relentlessly like Kennedy, nor has he got the tricks and fancy feet of Hery. What he is though is a solid competitive and pretty damn good central midfield player at this level. The team is a better unit with him in it than without him.

Moorlad wrote:
Agreed

Can we play both Dicker and Joyce in the same lineup or is it one or the other?

A lot depends on what is done with Kennedy to be fair, and who is playing in the back 4. If we play Atkinson at left full back, then Grainger will play on the left of the midfield. The right sided option is definitely Gilliead, and if we're playing two up front (which I believe we should) then you have two of Joyce, Kennedy, Dicker and Hery. Curle is giving himself selection headaches because we have good midfield and forward options.

It's as difficult up front, where Jabo has to start, he will have to be paired (currently) with one of Asamoah, Wyke or Hope. Pretty tough on any of those being left out.

Not a fan of Hery myself,bit of a show Pony with no end product.

We have a problem with the left side of midfield when playing 4-4-2 , we only have Granger and Brough , both seem to struggle in that position .The other area is creative midfield player , we only have Hery who at present blows hot and cold.Other areas look fairly decent.

cufcmike wrote:
Please don't tell me you're creditting Joyce with an assist for Grainger's equaliser on Saturday

Joyce looks much better as one of two in the middle, in fact all our midfielders do apart from Dicker who does OK in the three as he's got others doing the running he can't.

We looked better with Hery and Kennedy central at Wycombe after Joyce got his marching orders. Last night we looked better with Joyce and Kennedy there.

Let's give 4-4-2 a proper go, getting in a left sided player and another central defender- Ellis isn't up to it. Someone likened him to Kev Gray on here, they must be on crack.

ParcelPete wrote:

I have similar view but would not have put it so bluntly..

franksidebottom wrote:
Joyce passed it to Grainger, and then Grainger scored. Thats what an assist is, isn't it?

So using that logic, if Gillespie had rolled it out to Grainger who had then covered the length of the pitch before scoring that would have been classed as an assist as well?

I don't think so.

Flatcap wrote:
Yep. He made the decision to play it to Grainger. Rather than play it to someone else. Can't believe I have to explain what an assist is ffs.

cufcmike wrote: Yeah that quite literally is an assist, if you pass it to someone and they go and score then you've assisted their goal.

cufcmike wrote:
Probably the most accurate football post I have read on here. Bravo. So many people are ignorant of that role (look at the stick Thirlwell used to get) and would prefer someone who can do a 360 degree spin on the ball then complete a basic pass a la Dicker.

That's right he's not eye catching or flash and mainly does defensive midfield work but he does create a bit too.
Flatcap passing to the goal scorer is an assist but sometimes you do a lot more than others to create an assist.
If Grainger had dribbled past 10 players doing varies tricks and then put a cross in to Asamoah who was tying his shoelace and it hit is arse and went in it would still be Grainger assist and Asamoah goal scorer.

Incidently in the Luton game when Joyce received a pass from Grainger and turned with the ball to put a chip pass into Wyke who was challenged as he received it and it broke through to Gillead who scored. That's not an assist and doesn't get noticed. If Wyke had controlled it and scored it would be.

cufcmike wrote:
I think you'll find looking at the video that it was Atkinson who passed to Grainger and not Joyce so assist for Atkinson.

Wukkie wrote:
Just watched it again, and I appear to be mistaken!

Would you give Kennedy the assist for Asamoah's winner on Tuesday night? I wouldn't. Kennedy passed him the ball yes, but Asamoah did all the work himself. I'd be interested to see if it went down as an assist for Kennedy officially?

It's an assist for me considering it's the last telling touch and it isn't as if it's bounced off his arse and then ricoched it's way to Degsy.

cufcdeano wrote:
If Kennedy passed the ball it's his assist!
If you mishit a shot and score you're still the goalscorer.

walwynlegend wrote:
I don't disagree with your comment about mishitting a shot and still being the goalscorer.

Wikipedia's definition of a goal assist:
"In association football, an assist is a contribution by a player which helps to score a goal."

Did Kennedy help Asamoah to score a goal? He passed the ball to him on the half way line, but imo he helped as much as the guy who passed Kennedy the ball - do they get an assist too? No. I'm possibly wrong, and will accept that, but I generally look at an assist as being somebody who crosses the ball in, or lays a pass or for the final shot. Not giving the ball to somebody for them to run 40 yards past 3, 4, 5 players before scoring.

For what it's worth, the Club's official statistics (www.carlisleunited.co.uk/stats/player-stats/) have Kennedy with 3 assists, the same as my own statistics, and I didn't give him the assist for the 4th goal on Tues.

If Kennedy didn't give Asamoah the ball, he wouldn't have scored. Definite assist.

Playing Devil's Advocate here.

And if the player giving Kennedy the ball had not done so, Asamoah would not have scored either, so can he claim an assist as well?

Definite assist

Flatcap wrote:
No. Thats completely different. It doesn't matter the trajectory/direction/speed of the pass. If its the final pass to reach a player, before they score a goal, its an assist. I honestly don't understand what is so hard for people to grasp?

For what it's worth, I've always defined an assist as a pass to a player who then scores, having had to do nothing other than finish, ie a cross that was headed in, a through ball that was run on to and finished one or two-touch.
The ball to Wyke - assist.
The pass to Asamoah which led him to then go on a run - not an assist, I'd see that as a self made goal.

Flatcap wrote:
This does illustrate how the assist stat is at least partially flawed but that is exactly how it's recorded.

Arguably Wkye's nod down was more crucial in Gilliead's goal at Luton but Derek gets the assist for playing the final ball.

But surely "the other way" theres loads of grey areas? What would happen if Grainger plays a scintillating ball from his own area, to Asamoah, who is on the half way line. Asamoah only has one man to beat, beats him, and scores. Does Grainger not get any credit? At least my (and others) way, its the same rule across the board.

cufcdeano wrote:
You're point here is assuming that the stats page of the OT is up to date... quite a risk there deano!!

For me an assist is something which came along in the age of championship manager on the computer and the opta stats bollox often quoted by those pioneers of the game Sky Sports. Many of these stats are totally irrelevant and often seriously flawed, as has been proved on here by people's notion of what an assist is.

Just a scenario I've thought up. Gilliead gets the ball on Saturday on halfway, beats 5 men on a mazy run, gets to the byline and crosses to Ibhere 2 yards out who falls over the ball (making contact with it though) and misses the open goal. The ball falls to Asamoah who scores. Who gets the assist?

Under some people's interpretation it has to be Ibhere who gets the assist, which would be totally underserved in anyone's view. This is why the whole modern day stats fascination is seriously flawed.

Im sure they are starting to do stats of assists to assists

The Americans, unsurprisingly, have rules about these sorts of things.

"The NCAA makes regulations for statistics, including assists, in college soccer in the U.S.[12] Two players may be credited with assists if the second did not have to beat a defender before passing to the scorer.[4] No assist is awarded for winning a penalty.[13] If a goal is scored after a save, block, or rebound from the goal frame, the first shooter gets an assist.[14]"

I don't get this whole assists thingy

a good tackle or goaline clearance or even a worldclass bit of skill before a pass to the guy who provides the assist just as important

I'm guessing its a fantasy football invention