TOPIC: How does Andrew Jenkins.......

......propose to recover his £1.8m, which is spent and gone,without impacting on the next few years' budgets? Really, loads of people want to know. Perhaps someone at the Club can let the fans and other spectators have a bit of an insight into this.....

Witchcraft

Man Utd away in the 4th round Chelsea away in the 5th round Spurs away in the QF then possibly Man City at Wembley in the semi. Think getting to the final is pushing it a bit.

the solution is the billionaire who is having talks with AJ.JN and Lord Clark

You must be dreaming shaldon...or take your bloody head out of the sand

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Of course this debt will impact on the future of United.
But when the alternative is oblivion, why should you criticise the man for keeping the club afloat.
Some people seem to think Carlisle United are an an attractive investment prospect with queues of potential investors being thwarted by our present directors,determined to keep the golden pigs trough in which they bury their snouts,exclusively for themselves.
What a load of rubbish, we are a third grade club and always will be, our crowd potential is lousy, and this has been proved over the years.. Even when in the top league we could hardly expect more than 14k at Brunton Park.
So be grateful, we will always be reliant on local Businessmen with limited finances. We will always loose our best young players for relative peanuts, and when we finally attract a talented Manager, like Curle,, he will soon be tempted away to lucrative horizons elsewhere.
, only to reappear in three years time, as manager of Shrewsbury, Halifax,or God forbid Gateshead.
Put simply we are not and never will be a source of potential wealth to outside investors, so rather than criticise our present directors, who under extreme abuse from many on this board,have kept the Club afloat with virtually no credit, and maintained United for the enjoyment of our kids, accept that we will always be a lower grade Club, capable of the occasional suprise, but always capable of firing the spirit of our true supporters who accept that we will never be a Man U but should never be taken as easybeats.
Being a Director of Carlisle United is not a path to wealth and fortune, as Andrew Jenkins support has proved, so why don't you give them a break, credit them for a job well done, and if you are not happy with this, put your money where your mouth is, or should I say typing finger, and be prepared to offer the required finances to take over.

Quokkablue2 wrote:
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're on a wind up.

Quokkablue2 wrote:
Ill put in £1 and take over John Nixons share. I assume by your post youd be confident he'd let me have a go?

Hello Chester. Old pal.
Not my greatest Fan I take it.
Rather than a spurious few words, would you care to put some meat on your suggested criticism of my post, or is this beyond you, after all, well Bothel, well that says it all.

Dancing bear.
Sorry absolutely no idea. Why don't you try it, maybe you could do a better job, but if you don't give it a go , then my initial post stands

Quokkablue2 wrote:
No idea who you are or where you're from, so have no opinion on you really. Excellently constructed put down of the village I was brought up in, care to offer up where you were brought up so that I can make an equally weak assumption as to your IQ?

I'll make a few points for you in my next post now that you claim to not be on a wind up.

Ps nothing spurious about my original post, it's pretty clear what I'm saying, either you're on a wind up, our your opinion differs wildly from mine.

Maybe i could. We'll never find out though as the club isnt really for sale is it?

Looks like the wind up worked.
However I do accept that you have a short memory so let's just say we have history.
However my IQ is very low as you have pointed out in the past, and not restricted by my origination in life..
Would it be possible to return to the various points raised in my original post. Eh?..

Everything is for sale at the right price..
And to be honest would you really want to buy Carlisle United at any price..
The accounts would suggest that any astute investor would keep well away unless they had a deep seated love of the Club

Quokkablue2 wrote:
I am not one of the people you think have the unrealistic idea that our club could be one that challenges the top order of English football, to be honest I'm not aware of anyone who is, my main issue with JN, AJ and SP is that they clearly do not have the business acumen to take our club forward in the modern football world. Have a look through the early interviews with Keith Cure, he's dragged this club kicking and screaming towards the 21st century, we were a joke right across the club, we've been losing money hand over fist since FS left the club. I will give some credit to AJ as he is the one that has put his hand into his own personal wealth to keep the club afloat, but last summer was the end for me.

As you say being a director of our club, in fact most clubs, is not a path to untold riches, but it doesn't need to be a path to financial ruin. As a business we're failing, our board until recently was made up of old men who are past their sell by date in the business world, we need new blood and new ideas, ave guess what? We had that opportunity in the summer, but AL was bombed out by AJ etc at the 11th hour. A very successful local business man as part of a group of other businessmen, mostly local, was prepared to relieve that financial burden from AJ and his family, but we all know what happened next.

It's funny to see that since the collapse of this investment deal in the summer the club had made a number of positive changes in the boardroom and across several parts of the club, the majority of these were ideas from AL.

I don't expect our club to be bankrolled to European glory, I did hope that our failing 'reluctant custodians' would do what is right for the club and give the AL investment to go ahead, and put us towards what could be a financially secure, well run football club that does not rely on one individual to cover any financial shortfall he and his fellow custodians have generated through their out of touch business ways.

Credit then for a job well done? I generally only give credit where it is due.

Quokkablue2 wrote:
We have history eh? Internet debate/squabbles most rank higher in your list of priorities than in mine...

Carlisle definitely has the potential to get bigger crowds than 14 thousand, the Leeds match proves this, we've also took more than 20 thousand to Wembley twice , that proves that enough intrest exist in the region , also the account prove that they've done a very bad job the turnover has halved the attendeces have halved our league position has changed dramotcally on a downwards spirials , our debts have increased , Carlisle is actually a club who have reached nowhere near its peak, it's got over 200 thousand people withing 30 minutes , it's has no sporting rival to challenge for audiences as a club we have so Much untapped potensial that the owners have done quite frankly a pathetic job,

Quokkablue2 wrote:
Moving any business forward requires, sound decisions, foresight and investment at the right time. Finding the right people, with money, that bring these skills and local passion that can take us to another place are few and far between. When the Trust drove Fred Story out of Carlisle United, was the day our future died. Why ? because of who was left to run the Club. The Club will never prosper and move to forward under the current custodians, that is clear, we will always have a New Investor, Blue Yonder, Restructure etc to distract us from the Buggers Muddle we are in.
Sadly, unless we come up with a large local consortium with a combined financial pot and business plan to take Carlisle United forward for the next decade, we are stuck where we are. bouncing along at the lower end, reliant on a pensioner to 'dib-in' when things are a bit lean................Not a great prospect is it ?

thesilentone wrote:
Is this not what the custodians knocked back in the summer?!

Silent stone.
In a roundabout way, exactly what I was trying to say.
Yes we need new directors with financial clout, but they simply don,t exist, so we have to accept those who are prepared to run the Club.
Those accumulated by the previous take over bid, were rejected by the present Board, simply because the total investment Capacity failed to measure up, or have I missed something.
Ok I live overseas so it is possible that I may have missed something.

I would rather see the club in administration than these bumbling fools continue for much longer...at least someone will have to come in and sort it out...and these analogue 3 will be forced out.

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Chester, Wheeee, we agree.
But in the meantime, don,t crucify the present Board, who simply don't have the financial clout to progress the Club forward.

Quokkablue2 wrote:
The club claimed that they did not have the money but that was shot down by lapping , the club then came up with another excuse then another excuse , then another excuse ,

I'd still like to see something official from the club on this. It's a situation which has been known since the accounts came out, and something needs to be said to address the concerns of the supporter-base. The silence is defeaning, but hasn't it always been under these "custodians". It's almost as though the rest of us don't exist. The only thing that we can do is to keep asking, either in this fashion or through Claire.

Incidentally, an old friend has commented on this on the other board.

I think all need to move on from the Lapping deal now.
It clearly was not acceptable to the three amigos, and my take is that there was simply no chance of AJ getting his money back and the others money for their shares, and this was the sticking point. Also seemed to me that this was not quite pointed out in the discussions held and he only cottoned on to this (or had it pointed out to him), and this may have got the old goat's back up.
I know all the aguments about him causing the losses, but how many on here would give up the best part of £2M if they had it. I for one would not.

Quokkablue2 wrote:
Do you genuinely believe that the only way to progress the club is through throwing a load of money at it? What about using imaginative business ideas? Communicating with the paying public and not calling a member of the local press a c*nt then failing to apologise for it?

I have no issue with the fact they cant afford to bankroll the club, but until they had some ideas given to them by AL they've basically sat with their eyes closed and fingers crossed hoping things get better. They appear to have done nothing proactively to change it improve the situation. Successful business are not made by large investment alone, they come about through efficient working practices and imaginative business plans.

So, no we really don't agree. We have a similar idea as to the potential of our club, but on everything else we're miles apart.

Quokkablue2 wrote:
Lol

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I think we all need to move on from my offer-it didn't happen and now history.

May I point out however that the offer of £1.25m did not involve any money being paid out to current stakeholders-this was very clear from day 1,evidenced by AJ agreeing to convert his loan into equity.The so called 45/45/10 split.

The Pioneer loan was to be treated separately-cash repayment from cash flow and advertising set offs.

The thrust of my offer was to alleviate the debt burden as it has the ability to manipulate strategic thinking eg should we sell a player to pay down a loan or hold onto him for a bit longer to get a better deal?Should we cut the playing budget to make debt repayments?Should we avoid spending on capex to meet debt repayments?Should we keep a useless manager because we need to keep up with debt repayments?

It's basic business strategy-clean balance sheet,clean forward thinking.

There is no point in criticising AJ-he has stood his corner on many occasions-evidence being he has covered 4 years of cash losses.Not a cure,but it certainly kept things afloat.But as I have said many times,running up trading losses each year in any business is unsustainable so you need to address the root causes-something I attempted to do by looking at how the Club performs at every level

Quokkablue2 wrote:
As your quote above points out. No money from the custodians.. They should then go public and sit in front of the press and say we want to sell up and let someone else come forward. End of.

Laffy wrote:
Andrew- We need you and your guys to come back to the table. Please.

CarlisleWhite wrote:
Not having a go here CW, but did AJ really expect to get his money back? Did he believe we would be in a position to generate enough income to do this under his and the other shareholders management of the business? Or was there to be another revenue stream used to pay him back?

BP - no, he probably did not. Probably he may have thought it would be the "odd time" then with a lack of foresight (recurring theme?) he may have thought he was left with no choice but to keep shelling out or see it go to the wall.
I am not defending AJ by the way, but I do think he would not let the blues go to the wall, and for that he is to be applauded.
As I was alluding to previously, I would have thought a deal that was more friendly to him (but not the others) may have got through. but AL is very clear on the principles behind his deal.

It's fair to say he deserves credit for actually putting his money in to keep it afloat but, that credit starts to wear thin when you take into account he,and his fellow directors ,have failed to do enough or indeed anything of note, to prevent the recurring theme of loss after loss, year after year. These "businessmen" should, if not after the first year of significant losses, definitely the second,have been taking steps to refinance/restructure the operation of the club. What they appear to have done is simply cut back and downsize in a negative, regressive way. Poor strategy from so called successful businessmen.

Not even really saying he deserves credit for it to be honest (although he does), just that it is his money and he rightly seems to want it back.
It could be borrowed against an asset for all we know. Pioneer does not strike me as a multi million pound profit making operation.

Pioneer made a post Tax profit of £748,592 last year, the company is valued at around £12.7m

Ha ha, that's that theory blown away!

CarlisleWhite wrote:
We'll have to agree to differ on this one. He should get some back but only if this can be done without the club being put into debt. He has been at the helm whilst the club has suffered it's decline, yes, he's propped it up, but they've done nothing to attempt to turn around the clubs fortunes until Laffy started the process he did. Was it the emperor Nero fiddled while Rome burned? Our reluctant custodians have been fiddling about since FS chucked the towel in.

griff wrote:
Right - and pigs will fly before Comical and his chums deign themselves to interact with us lower life forms.....and as for Bumble's point about the fans needing to be taking seriously I would have collapsed with utter hysterics had other events (FAR more serious) not being going on in Cumbria and around here [very luckily not me due to where I live]

markredfox73 wrote:
I'm confused now, Mark. Why would he have sand up his @rse?

........look at himself in a mirror?

I shouldn't think that I would agree with Laffy in many areas of general life but his plan for Carlisle was the only one that made sense to me in 50 years. In fact it may have been the first time ever that a plan has been thought through for Carlise United.

A key element was removing the risk of a 79 year old man having a £1.8m debt owed by the club and the risks to the club if anything happened to him.

A second part was trying to make sure that in the future the club was never indebted to any one individual ever again.

I imagine that this was a recogintion that Carlisle was never going to get a white knight with a Billion pounds when even the chmpionship was likely to give us an average 7-8000 fans.

Andrew's shares are obviously worth a fraction of the £1.8m loan but if anything happened to him the club may be obligated to pay that money out immediately which would probably collapse the club. If Andrew has already created a covenant to make sure this didn't happen it would be reassuring for a Carlisle fan to know this was in place.

The issue with Fred Storey's loan of £1.2m was sorted as part of the process with Laffy as was the possible agreement of the Trust to dilute their shares.

Since Laffy's bid, there has been a very welcome move forward from the club with soem great football and success, KC and the players going out to meet fans, Suzanne and Phil looking to get more engaged with the fans and everyone at the club getting more commercial BUT all of this is irrevelant if the debt situation isn't sorted.

The current cash flow is probably fine with QPR, Liverpool and the FA Cup run but if the huge crisis doesnt happen this year it will next or the year after.

He's not going to get his money back.
The Fred loan was a refinance of the then 10 year old (?) Bristol & West Bridging loan. Fred left it outstanding for what another 10 years before writing off. Why? It was never going to get repaid and was stopping others getting involved.
The same will have to happen to Jenkins loan.
The clubs balance sheet has now just lost its main asset. BP worth nothing now. In the books at £3m plus? Worth zip until we get bette r flood defences, if ever!

Jenkins is like a compulsive gambler. Forever throwing good money after bad.

Flatcap wrote:
And cant give it up even if he wanted to it would seem.

griff wrote:
How do!

Just a reminder that the AGM had to be postponed. As yet it hasn't been rearranged. I know that it is only shareholders that can attend but I'd assume like board meetings there would be a briefing or are minutes usually released from the AGM?

Claire_Like_Eh wrote:
As CUFC 1921 is not a PLC, the only obligation to have an Annual General Meeting comes from its articles of association. A company can only have one annual general meeting in a calendar year so my guess is if they go ahead with the 'AGM' it will just be called a General Meeting (to approve the accounts) otherwise they couldn't hold another AGM in November 2016. The club could decide now it is about time it updated its articles and instead of holding formal AGMs it could invite shareholders to results presentations or question and answer sessions. It could even hold these more frequently than once a year.

It's actually quite interesting from a company law angle to see what the club will do in this situation.

I posted this on another thread but got insulted by other boarders.But does the debt we owe is it to Andrew Jenkins or Pioneer the reason i am asking is that Mr Jenkins is not getting any younger and no one lasts forever what would happen to the debt then if the debt was to him personally.

CumbrianView wrote:
Not certain of the figures, but have in my head c.£1.8m owed in total, roughly 2/3rds of that to AJ personally. Can someone please correct me if I'm wrong?