TOPIC: Gates in the championship

Most fans have always thought that if we were ever to get to the championship, we would really see our potential gates become reality. In general though, the last few years has challenged the thought that we could really get large gates.

So what do you think we could average for say a mid table season.?

Some things to be thinking about.

If one of the big 3 north east teams were in the championship and historically there has always been at least 1, they would surely bring 5k.

The likes of leeds and sheff we'd would surely bring 3k with the likes of sheff United, wolves and Birmingham you would expect them to bring 2-3k if played on a Saturday.

When clubs such as Wigan and Swansea played in the 4th tier, they averaged less than us but when they were both in the championship their gates picked up significantly.

Average away attendance last season in the championship was 1400. Id say its highly unlikely thered be more than that up here if we ever got there due to it being further to travel. Sheff Wed for instance aved just over 1900 so its highly unlikely theyd bring 3k up here for a run of the mill game. First or last game of the season etc could be a exception. I dont think we'd be getting more fans on average than we did when we were top of league 1.

www.football-league.co.uk/documents/trav...erage549-2598175.pdf

There's plenty of folk who would come if we were playing Newcastle, Sunderland, Leeds etc.
If we were playing MK Dons on a wet Tuesday night we'd be looking at 5k.
The problem is that there are lots of people who are up for going to a few games, but going week in, week out is not something that appeals.
We could realistically average 10k when you think of all the big clubs that are in there, in my opinion.
Obviously we would struggle to hold our own, but luckily the billionaire is waiting in the wings.

I think we would get home crowds of between 8 and 12 thousand and add on an away average of 1000.
Our away average now must be about 250. Probably the lowest in the league.
Better league + better opposition & away following + better ground + better atmosphere = much higher gates.
Not rocket science unless you are our board who are happy in the lower leagues with little ambition and distant plans for a small shoe box ground.

bruntonpete wrote:
That could be the stumbling block

Brunton Park rocks when there are more than 10,000 in.
Dancingbear wrote:

We were in the 2nd division, championship. I remember watching us beat Wimbledon 6 1 and there were abut 3000 there. Hopefully crowds have improved but I don't see a 4 fold increase, I think we would struggle to average over 6000

Football was on its arse then so no comparisons can really be made to that era to be fair.
Chelsea and Newcastle were getting crowds less than 10k and most other clubs were not too dissimilar to ours and have since proved that, with success or in a higher league, they can more than times the crowd by 4 or 5.
Wigan/Bournemouth /Swansea etc are getting ten times what they got then. We can too but it takes belief, ambition and investment.
I have said it many times, we don't know our true potential because we have never reached it. In the 70s when football was not glamorous and hooliganism was bad we still averaged 14k with a rubbish ground and average away support due to poor transport links.
I believe we could easily beat that nowadays if we were up there. On the pitch we are doing well now but off it we are a world away from most others in the league because we have stagnated for years/decades.

I'm sure the club's negative and small minded outlook has rubbed off on many of our fans as the negativity is so noticeable at times. Stop thinking about the problems and look for solutions for goodness sake.
Think small, stay small.

Completely agree bruntonpete

The problem isnt convincing people on here to go and watch the team every week. Its converting those who go to the big games and then dissapear until the next big game. If the club are proactive in doing that then who knows what sort of gates we'd get in future. The teams doing well on the pitch but before the floods the crowds hadnt really gone up at all. Knocking a few quid off once or twice a season has had absolutely no effect on increasing our average attendance.

If we were in the Championship next season and assuming the current bottom 3 went down from the Prem we would get capacity crowds against Newcastle, Sunderland, Aston Villa, Leeds and 12k - capacity against Wolves, Notts Forest, Birmingham, Burnley, Preston, Sheff Wed, Blackburn & Preston. Lots of away fans first season for new ground / terraces.

Did you know that last time we played Notts Forest at home in a game that had we won we would probably have been promoted to the championship we got less than 10k?. Also last time we played Preston at home there was less than 7k there. I still say only way we'll ever get good crowds is with massively reduced season ticket prices and free entry to under 16s who are accompanied by a adult. the under 16s thing should already be getting done now imo. Get lads going for years and theyll become full paying adults. Make it too expensive for them as school kids and they wont go at all.

To be fair the forest game was a Tuesday night, sure they would have brought a lot more if it were a Saturday. Last time we played Preston at home we were on our knees and prestons season had not yet taken off so although this sounds like ifs and buts, not quite a fair representation of what gates could be in the championship.

I would say let's look at Blackpool. Getting less than 4K in the 4th tier but once up to the championship they were getting g 12-14k. As an away day it would be more attractive than Carlisle but does show the big difference from playing in league one and two, to playing in the Cahmpionship.

I agree. My point is we need to do something radical to attract these new fans. Im sure the attraction for Blackpool fans wasnt just the fact they were playing Charlton or Brighton. There must have been something else like sensible ticket deals to get new fans involved. I go back to my earlier point about letting accompanied under 16s in for free. I really think this would pay dividends in a few years and cant see anything wrong at all with having a younger fan base. No doubt the dinosaurs in charge would see that as another thing theyd have to put up with. Heres a interesting stat for you, apart from their derby game with Preston Blackpool didnt have a home crowd above 10k until the 17th of april their penultimate home game. Ill give you the benefit of the doubt that you guessed they were getting 12-14k.

Let's say we had five seasons back at Championship level. The euphoria (for want of a better word) and novelty of that standard immediately following promotion should see us sustain a five-figure average for a while. Once the honeymoon period wears off, gates will probably start to tail off and fall to something like 75-80% of that first season. Plenty of other factors at work. Is there a new ground or at least a majorly revamped Brunton Park? Is there a promotion or even a relegation battle to sustain interest (and don't underestimate the latter's ability to influence crowds)? More importantly, do the supporters feel the club's going places or just happy to tread water and survive? Rest assured, even the rarefied levels of tier 2 won't be enough for some after a few seasons of 14th place or whatever. The ownership issue will therefore have a major bearing on the crowds - just think back to the feel good factor when big Fred was Chairman. No player is irreplaceable but you felt there was always another Garner, Westwood or Graham around the corner; we weren't having to keep selling the family silver (e.g. Dempsey) just to keep the lights on, which is how it feels like at the moment.

All valid points above but if we adopt good ticketing prices and a forward thinking mentality the crowds will come.
Blackburn and Wigan have cheap season ticket prices and have done for years albeit helped by a period of success.
The club need to study what other clubs have tried then try it out themselves or a new initiative rather than plod on with what clearly hasn't been attractive for many years.

That forest game was on a Tuesday night and in a league below the one we are talking about. 9k was still a very good crowd under the circumstances.

Rotherham is a good model to look at. Crowds of 3k for years and surrounded by bigger and more successful clubs and yet in the championship their crowds seem to range between 8 and 11k. That would be good for Carlisle. Lovely ground too.

bruntonpete wrote:
The point i was making Pete was that the original poster was suggesting gates for a run of the mill midtable season. If we couldnt get 10k for what was probably the most important game in recent history then some out of the box thinking is needed to inspire people to go regularly who have no interest in going now or back then. Ill keep banging on about getting more youngsters going regularly as theyre the full paying fans of the future.

I think some of the attendances suggested are a bit on the high side. I reckon we'd average around the 8500/9000 mark if we were in the championship.

Dancingbear wrote:
I agree DB . Out of the box thinking isn't our directors style though is it. I remember some wonderful ideas on the season ticket thread but when the offer was released it was exactly the same as it always had been. We do need to get the young ones going before they lose interest.
Loads of new and original ideas were ignored.

Is there a sense of any progress under the new marketing bod? Are we getting more match sponsorship and the like?

I remember in the old second division being in a 20,000 crowd, given it was against Sunderland.
So it's not impossible to get 10,000+ crowds if the team were playing well.

If we could magic ourselves there tomorrow I think we would average around 12,000 in our first season. After that it would depend on what we did.
We do genuinely have potential to be a regional club like Norwich or Ipswich. Possibly only Plymouth compare in terms of similar potential in lower leagues.
We just need a board with ambition and a bit of nous and passion!

Not sure how you think we have the potential to be a Norwich or Ipswich. We've only averaged about 5000 odd in all the years we've been going!

We would only average 9000 max and that would depend on sizeable away following and the first season novelty factor, if we stayed up would expect no more than 7000 and only if we are doing ok

Interesting Rotherham are the worst supported team with an average of 9729 this season and 10240 last.

nobbyblue wrote:
Just had a look and their ticket prices arent very competitive either. Adult tickets cost £23/25 if bought in advance and a half season ticket is £259/279. Maybe they had good full season discounts though who knows.

nobbyblue wrote:
Not bad considering they were getting about 2500 at Millmoor. Shows what a new stadium, new off field revenue can result in with forward thinking directors.

I would gladly swap BP for the New York stadium and swap our BOD for theirs. Almost went out of the league and now look at them, a great example for clubs like ours and to think of all of the clubs around them too.

We are comparable in geographical and to an extent demographical terms to clubs like Norwich and Ipswich and we should aspire to be more like them!
We have around 300,000 to pull from. No other football team for 60 miles and in fact no leading sports team of any kind for such distance.
We could and should make a "nice little Championship Club"!

Population of Norfolk 859k
Population of Suffolk 730k

How are we comparable?

It's frustrating isn't it, that from a straw poll of friends and acquaintances that one has, for every one person you know that does go, there are 10 that like football, but can't be bothered or would rather do something else with their time and money.
It's difficult to be certain how many of those people would come down if we were two leagues higher.
We have got a bigger potential fan base then many of the clubs in the bottom two leagues (though by no means all).
We have been in the doldrums going nowhere for years, which has sucked the life out of the place.
If we continue to stay in the promotion race we will get more people back down.

Population of Cumbria is 500,000 - South Cumbria Barrow area is probably outside of catchment area but we do have South West Scotland to draw from as well.

Without wishing to sound a complete pedantic ***t....
I said comparable geographically (remote) and to an extent demographically, I know the Cumbria population is lower but we do have similar mixture of urban and rural and socio economics with Norfolk and Suffolk. Main point is each Club is the club in its county or region.
We have to exclude Furness and South Lakeland areas taking us from 500,000 to to 300,000. But the same applies in areas of Suffolk and Norfolk too. Close to Peterborough, Colchester.
But we do have broadly old Cumberland plus as others have said SW Scotland and into Halwhistle and Hexham areas to pull from too. Also Kendal to some extent.
It's enough especially given the complete absence of any other serious prof sport in the area.
I agree with Bruntonpete. We can do so much better.

I think PK has made inroads on the commercial side. It's a hard task to follow because it has been such an unattractive proposition for anybody recently - relegation threatened, low crowds.

I think we're slowly seeing an increase in turnout, as things look more optimistic on the field. Of course, we're nowhere near the 8000 we got in the conference or 20,000 from the old Div 2 as mentioned above, however, I think the relationship is starting to heal - ever so slowly.

I don't understand why some are assuming that teams from the Midlands/Yorkshire (villa,Birmingham,wolves,Sheff utd/wed) would bring decent numbers to BP, I understand the reasoning behind the north east and Lancashire teams doing it purely for the relatively short travel, but I don't see why we should assume that fans would travel on mass from the Midlands to sit in an away end that overruns the end of the pitch.

Personally I think we would get decent gates for the bigger teams, but for normal run of the mill games we would probably have some of the lowest attendances in the league.

DeckchairBlue wrote:
Totally agree. I said in my original post that the average away support was 1400 last season in the championship. Given that theres a lot of teams from the midlands plus Leeds taking thousands everywhere then some of the away supports arent actually that substantial. Plus its a long way further than most travel now so i dont see any reason why on average wed get more than that.

It's an interesting discussion, however I don't think that attendances in the second tier are likely to affect us in the near future.

Exactly, we've got to get out of league 2 first.

For what it's worth, however much we would like to see Carlisle in the Champoinship, I feel it would probably be a disaster for a number ofreasons.
All seem to agree we would be amongst the lowest of crowds, hence lowest of budgets.
The away followings are nowhere near as high as some are suggesting. Quite a few ould be less than 500, and most would be in the 1 - 2K ramge.
However, the proportion of mercenary footballers multiples tenfold at that level. If we go straight back down, we will be left with these types for 2 - 3 years.
Although it was only a rumour/conspracy theory in FS's time, the thoughts behind it were probably right.
So, unless the billionaire appears, lets hope for League 1, which is probably our level anyway.
Just look at Yeovil as an example of what can happen!