TOPIC: What is actually going on at the club?

Why are we seeing all these things happening right now?

The initial thing about putting the Lapping deal on hold and coming up with the billionaire was obviously not exactly what was going on. But since then we have seen a number of things happen, perhaps none of them, seen on their own, massive earth shattering things. The appointment of the new Sales and Marketing director. The formation from the Trust of an official supporters club. A seat on the board for a fan, and a Holding Company board seat for the new supporters club. We then have automatic membership of the supporters club for season ticket holders, and the supporters club being invited to meetings and asked to invite other supporters groups (do we assume by this that the club accept the supporters club as being the most important group already). We have also got a new board for the football club, with the gruesome twosome retiring upstairs to just the holding company, and some younger people (including a woman - let's not forget ) appointed to the football club board. We have also got the Lapping deal finally completely binned, even though it seems some of his ideas are being put into place,

Why is all this going on?

Well I believe it is to do with the "billionaire". I still do not believe he exists. YET. But I think they are working towards getting somebody to invest in the club. I actually think the club is now being touted round as looking for investment, and even to be bought. I think they (the gruesome twosome) have employed an agent of their own to look into potential owners and investors of the club. I also think they'll have been told that unless some of the structural changes were made there was absolutely no chance.

So although the billionaire certainly doesn't exist at this stage, there is a possibility that we could see something happening in the next 6 months, if I'm right.

The truth is its all a smokescreen...moorlad you know that absolutely sweet fa will change in the next 6 months...it be just same old same old....new puppets at the top that will be yes people. theres nowt inovative going on at all and certainly nothing to entice the fans back. Its all back to square one. The horsemen will continue the same roles and try let others take the flack when the going gets tough as it already has... these wont be facing up to fans at forums will they?....no their new puppets will do it.

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The names to hurl your discontent at will change.

"Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic" I think somebody put it, the other day. Trouble is, the 2 key people who 'run' the club do so like it's still in the mid 80's.

I'm inclined to agree with the majority of that Mark, I'm certain they're happy to have themselves out of the firing line, and I'm absolutely certain they really want somebody to take all the flak for them. So yes, the new appointments are to protect them, I'm sure. However, I also think they are starting to realise their days are numbered, if not they'd have just continued with everything the same anyway. I think they've seen which way the wind's blowing. Whether the new Sales and Marketing bloke has told them, or Andy has been telling them what's on here or what, I don't know.

But I think they've realised that there is such vitriol now that they'll never be accepted, and they must know everyone knows their billionaire crack was made up, nobody is that stupid. So I really do think they want a new investor, who will either give them some cash to get out, or pay for a new stadium, so they can realise their cash with the sale of the ground.

Something is going on.

Hang on...Let's assume there is an interested party to buy the Club, he/she has been sitting on the fence watching what has been going on in for the last 6/9 months (buyers don't just pop-up). One thing AL did was bring a breath of fresh air, new ideas and new people, what he did NOT have was a NDA/Confidentiality agreement, so his ideas are being put into action. However who is driving the changes ? Is it our current Dinosaurs, the new Marketing Man, or the potential new Owner demanding changes are made BEFORE a firm offer is made for the Club ??

A new owner would want to put his own folk and ideas in place......so their little changes are irrelavant..and if they had sense they would ensure both nixon and jenkins are away from the club in any capacity.You imagine if one of us lot won big on the euros.. would you mess about letting these lot wanting to stay on.....unless you need your head looking at.

We have been run like an old boys club that is dying a slow death.3-4 k fans have gone missing including folk who have been as loyal as possible but have simply had it. A new owner must get the fans to return...thats going to be difficult though thanks to the current regime driving folk away due to their poor ability to run a football club

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There were questions about the Lapping deal though to be honest. Not about the amount of investment, or about the amount each investor was going to put in, that could have been sorted after any prospectus was produced. The questions were about the intended structure going forward. I asked him some of these questions on here, and some of those questions he did feel able to answer, others he either couldn't or wouldn't, so I accepted what he said and decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, until we were fully aware of all the arrangements. What was worrying me about it was that there would have not been any money, in the plan, either for the team, or for any stadium redevelopment, even though he said his preferred option was staying at Brunton Park. There was also the problem of the dinosaurs, and with the share restructure which was proposed they would have been completely protected (well 2 of them at least).

So for me it was never the perfect solution.

Now from all the noises we hear, the suggestion is that the same structure is the preferred option for the dinosaurs, they want to ensure that they will still have the controlling interest, and that remains a worry, but their other preferred option is still Blue Yonder. For me that makes them a worse option than Lapping. The implementation of big parts of Lapping's plan now just looks like window dressing, and the money from recent player sales seems to have bolstered their position and provided them with almost the buffer Lapping was suggesting.

However, I seriously can't see them having made the moves they have recently without a view to something being sorted in terms of either investment or some form of partnership agreement. Of course they're not sidelining themselves, they still retain control, whatever they try to tell us, and no change is possible without their say so. But as you ask, who is the driving force behind that change? Certainly not Lapping, although some of the changes appear to stem from his proposals. I don't think it is our beloved dinosaurs, because anything seen to be giving up on anything does not appear to be the way they operate. I really can't see them listening to somebody who is a brand new employee yet, so I believe there must be some form of outside influence. Believing, as I do, that there is no billionaire currently in talks with the club, leaves me only one option. The outside influence must be somebody who knows the market for football club investment, which is where I have come up with the idea that we're now being actively touted round as an investment opportunity.

Oh and to add...a billionaire interested must be wondering why we have sold our best players if there was something pending.....if something big was happening this would not have happened...hence why nowt is gonna change and the same old stuff will go on.






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markredfox73 wrote:
Depends on the investment level Mark, I'd suggest.

If there is somebody prepared to buy them out, they'd need to pay what they'd be getting from selling the ground, then they'd need to be willing to invest in a complete upgrade of the current facilities, as well as being prepared to invest in the team. That would require a lot of cash (£25 - £30M?) in the first couple of seasons.

An investment plan along the lines of Lapping's would be much cheaper and give the investor limited equity, at least to start with.

markredfox73 wrote:
Now that is a good point. So it tends to prove there is no investor in place yet.

I agree with Moorlad it’s interesting these things are happening at the same time.
The Operational Board as mentioned wouldn’t appear to have enough knowledge or experience about it to be able to deal with the day to day running of the club, and certainly lacks a MD. Perhaps the new “Holdings Board” Director is the new MD? This would explain why JN is not only stepping down as MD but also vacating his office. The new MD lined up in the Lapping deal would have probably had to have worked some notice. It is possible that that notice expires 31st July.
The statement against the Lapping deal could be designed to give the new MD a clean slate, and allow him to concentrate on the future.
It’s entirely possible however that JN is only changing his title to avoid some flak as a home game is looming. I would expect him to take his wife along as well hoping people won’t be too unpleasant in her presence. He has previous, releasing little sweeteners to try to reduce the abuse before home games. Expect to see someone with a brown paper bag over their head in the director’s box at the next match, due to a non disclosure agreement!
AS a side note, why would a local businessman offer the club £250K then be happy for Lapping and particularly Robin Brown take seats on the BoD when he has stumped up ten times as much as them. Anyone with that kind of coin would be hotly pursued by JN and AJ behind ALs back.

As to the pursuing of Lapping's potential investors behind his back, from what I have heard that is precisely what was going on. I don't know if it was definitely the case, but if I'm honest I heard it from a number of different people.

Lapping has been royaly shafted

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Problem is, it is not an investment opportunity. Investment suggests a return for your money, football clubs are money drains, who's making a profit? very few and certainly clubs in leagues 1 and 2 are hardly setting the stock market ablaze. What 'Billionaire' in his right mind would stick a pin in the league table and come up with Carlisle United, it's not an investment, it's a plaything, look at the track record of lower league and some premiership takeovers in recent years, Leeds, Newcastle, Cardiff, it's a friggin nightmare. The 'Billionaire' is a figment of an extremely devious and cunning mind, sadly the perpetrator has lit a time-bomb under his own arse because when it is revealed the secret philanthropist has withdrawn his bid and the status quo prevails - there will be hell to pay, and probably no money to pay anything!!

Just a small addition to why I don't believe there is a billionaire at the moment, I actually think it would be completely impossible to have kept it so quiet for so long. Names and rumours would have surfaced. For instance when first contact was made somebody must have taken the call, or seen the letter, or email. When the agent of the agent turned up somebody must have taken the name, and somebody would have checked them out. These things do tend to circulate when they are so big and important, however, not a sniff in two months.

Alas, the days of potential new investors arriving at BP in battered old Cortinas has passed.

Steve Pattison is a further interesting link in the entire chain as well, just what exactly will be going on there? He still has his shareholding, as far as I understand it, but has resigned as a director, is that right? Is he out as director of both companies, or just the football club? If he is no longer on the Holding Company board, will he be reappointed? I can't really see him not carrying on going to games, getting in for nowt and lording it over us common plebs.

Has Nixon tried to use Pattison as some sort of scapegoat, and it has backfired? I think the whole Lapping thing finally turned on the removal of Pattison, remember the statement on the club website? It was a glowing defence of Pattison, and a thinly veiled attack on Lapping. After that statement appeared there was no chance of Nixon and Lapping ever working together.

markredfox73 wrote:
We didn't sell Potts though, he was out of contract and decided to accept a contract elsewhere, meaning we either agreed a fee or it went to a tribunal - nothing the club could do here. Dempsey had a release clause in his contract, whatever we think about the clause is irrelevant as it's not a massive assumption to say he wouldn't have signed the contract without it being included. It's not exactly like we transfer listed them and accepted the first bid. This is the nature of the beast for most clubs if you produce young talent that's better than the level you are playing at.

Gundog wrote:
Thing is tho, there won't be hell to pay as they'll still be getting 3,000 (inc 1000 or so ST holders) through the gate "it's our local club, support it etc etc". Now is the time for hell to pay, as you say.

Along those lines a bit, to anybody who isn't around Cumbria or who hasn't been following this, we look like we have quite progressive people running the club to be honest. They look as if they're gradually stepping aside to let new blood run the club, they've even appointed (or will) a woman to the board, plus we are one of very few clubs with a minority ethnic manager. So the happy clappers carry on going, any national press about the club will be good, and the world all looks rosey.

I think you may well be close to the truth, Moorlad. It's more than likely that they're still hiding behind this fantasy they've invented, and are now scuttling around behind the scenes desperately attempting to dig themselves out of this hole they're now in. In short, they've backed themselves into a corner, and are now probably under far more scrutiny than they ever expected.

I've seen one or two people say 'why are people so certain there is no billionaire'. Just to be clear on this, my reasons would be as follows.

1. The motive. The events of the last few days show they were probably planning to stab AL in the back all along, but because of his huge popularity they probably realised they couldn't do it without some sort of alternative which people may accept, and which wouldn't result in riots outside BP when they finally got around to doing what they did last week. Obviously the imaginary billionaire was intended to be that very smokescreen, but as with most things those two do, it's all gone a bit wrong.

2. The timing of it all was just far too convenient. The evening before AL was due to announce the appointment of the new MD - and therefore realistically push the deal past the point of no return - this billionaire just happens to appear out of the blue, promising fortune and glory beyond our wildest dreams. I mean...seriously?

3. It's far too suspicious that literally the only two people who supposedly know the identity of this person are Jenkins and Nixon. If this person did actually exist, none of us would actually be demanding to know their identity as we'd all realise there could be genuine reasons for some level of discretion; but at the very least, we'd simply want someone we trust - be it a fans' rep, CUOSC board member, or whatever - to be told; not so they could then pass it on, so they could simply say to the rest of us "Yes I now know who it is, and I can confirm that in fact they do exist - now calm down the bloody lot of you".

4. It's now simply been going on for far too long. Even if the billionaire was real, if they actually revealed themselves at this stage, I honestly believe that this climate of bad feeling, resentment and suspicion that has been created by endless weeks of secrecy would instantly put them on the back foot with the fans, and at the very least I think they'd have a major PR job on their hands just to repair that trust.

I've got a slightly different take on how things have been for the last year or so:

• JN and AJ are quite happy with how things are ticking along. Yes, it was a pity we got relegated, but these things happen, especially to little clubs like Carlisle. Enjoying their trips to Portugal and down to the FA meetings.
  
• All this time, they are sniffing around local businessmen. See the recent admission about Frank Lynch. Not to take over the club, to "invest" in the club or, realistically, "give us your money, don't expect any control or anything for it. You might get a couple of signs pitch side if you want and maybe a meal in Foxy's, but that's your lot.
  
• They then chance upon AL and JN, SP & AJ think more of the above, however AL takes the investment talks literally and starts using his business acumen to come up with a progressive way forward for the club. JN & AJ are happy to play along with this as they think they're still in for a bit of coin.
  
• AL continues to formulate proposals, approaches people and gradually his plans start becoming public. JN, SP & AJ are not happy at all about this but are being pulled along by events. SP sees that the writing is on the wall and tries to undermine the deal and AL at any oppertunity.
  
• The final straw comes when AL makes it plain that SP is a freeloader who contributes [censored] all and has to go.
  
• JN & AJ see this is as an ideal way to get the Trust to dilute their vote (they believed they had initially) and to get rid of the FS debt so play along with the AL plan. At the same time, they attempt to appropriate the best bits of his ideas for themselves. They then start sniffing around local businessmen and where better to start than ALs list.
  
• At this point, they need to stall for time, invent the half truth of the billionaire. Don't forget, they're still trying to get in the local businessmen and Philip Day (just about) nearly fits the bill of a foreign billionaire. Reality is, he's just one of a bunch of local business men approached and probably pledged a fiver or something. Either way, it's enough to stall the AL take over.
  
• Realising they've dug themselves into a hole, they've instigated a few cosmetic changes the most important of which is with the board changes they can now legititametly not go to the home matches and have dogs abuse hurled at them.
  

This is what I expect to see happen next:

1. 1 - 3 months time: A few statments about the talks on investment are progressing
2. 4 Weeks tops: A new MD (cannon fodder/ puppet) of the FC appointed allowing JN to complete his move
3. 8 August - New MD in the Directors seat with JN & AJ safely tucked behind that perspex in front of Foxy's
4. October: SP " a person who has done immeasurable service to the club over many years welcomed back onto the board"
5. 3 - 6 months: silence on the billionaire
6. Xmas: record low crowds, best players sold. New MD coming out with lines such as "need to live within our means, long term stability blah blah [censored] blah"
7. 8th May: (flirt with or) relegation
8. Jun/July: A statment released along the lines of "due to the evident lack of support in the local community, the Billionaire investor has reluctantly decided to look at alternative oppertunities


TL;DR - JN, SP & AJ had no interest in bringing him on board and strung him along hoping for his money.

Armo wrote: I reckon that is pretty close to the truth... As crazy as it sounds.

Totally agree with that...its so predictable what will happen

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ChampagneSupernova wrote: I think they were most likely prepared to go the whole way with the Lapping deal, until there was a fall out with Pattison, then they hatched the plot to get rid of him, and just use some of his ideas, rubbish him in public, invent a new buyer and come out smelling of roses.
ChampagneSupernova wrote: That was the thing that I really got suspicious about. For 6 years they had been trying to find a buyer and there was no interest at all, then there's the Lapping job and right away there's yet another one. I have even asked directly in the past if there had been any interest in the club, and been told no.
ChampagneSupernova wrote: This is one of the most important points, there is no reason that somebody trustworthy, Lord Clark, for fuck's sake, how much more trustworthy can you get than a peer of the realm, should not have been told who it was, and shown evidence that he/she exists.
ChampagneSupernova wrote: I completely agree with this point, any new arrival now will be viewed with nothing but suspicion, why so secretive? What were the talks about? Why not want us to know you? etc etc.

Your opening paragraph is right, they expected us to swallow the lot hook, line and sinker and just not ask any questions. Then when it got heated there was panic, they lost their nerve and invented a stupid story they can't back down from. As you say they've painted themselves into a corner. To get out of it they have to produce a billionaire.

Armo wrote:
This is also what I expect to see, or something very similar, when they finally have to come out and admit defeat trying to find an investor.

We have to be very careful, as a club, because if we become that nice little non league club, we'll be absolutely knackered for any sort of investment.

At the meeting last week Andrew Jenkins said this about how the billionaire investment talks came about. (in quotes cos I taped it to make sure I got it right)
"In the meantime we did get an approach from an agent, who I know well. He asked if we were interested in an investor and that's the process that's going on. . . but. . . we would love to tell everybody who it is. . . but he said no, don't. otherwise he will just walk away. We are still in that process. "

Thanks Bumble, I believe that just about confirms my suspicions that they don't have anybody, but are in fact touting us around as available.

Bumble wrote:
This should be passed onto Jon Coleman and it reported to the wider public.
Let's all pass on info like this so everybody can see it.

Thanks Bumble!

I think the above has been said before by both AJ AND JN. AJ said that since Fred Story took his charge off the club there have been a number of people asking the club if they would be interested in some investment.

The interest from the billionaire was as an investment, not a take over, in the same way the interest from AL was as investment not a take over.

I asked AJ to clarify that if these present negotiations with the billionaire came to nothing, would the club be actively seeking investment from elsewhere and he said that they would be.

Well, there we go.

Did he give any kind of indication about just how the investment talks are currently going?

Bumble wrote:
Corrected for you

Only that the process was ongoing.

As I said before I am convinced that there is a billionaire, who has shown interest in the club.

I personally don't know if we are the only club the billionaire is interested in or whether he is looking at several and deciding which he thinks is the best investment going forward. If the investor wants to negotiate without revealing himself, that's up to him, I really don't care, or understand why knowing who the person is is relevant until a deal is done.

I just hope that either a deal is done or not done soon, as being in limbo doesn't help anyone.

Well, I'm convinced there is an agent who has said that he might know a billionaire who might be interested in investing in football clubs in the UK. Whether the billionaire exists is still a matter of conjecture, personally I don't believe so, but I'm probably much older than you, and much more cynical. I don't want to hear the name of the fella/woman concerned. All I want is somebody I would trust to come out and say, I have seen proof he exists, and I have seen proof that he wants to be involved at Carlisle United.

I know it won't happen though.

Bumble wrote:
Bumble, really appreciate that, I think a few words speak volumes from that quote.

Let's play devil's advocate and say he was telling the truth here. I don't even know where to start with just how worrying this would be. It sounds like, instead of a solid, reliable and serious investor, this is someone who's been very casually hawked about as a possible contact and just about very little else. Not only that, but someone who was as deadly serious and determined to make the sort of significant and long-term investment they're hinting at, would surely not be so precious and over-sensitive as to threaten to take their ball and go home at the first hint of their identity being guessed at.

If their interest is that shaky and conditional in the first place, what on earth would happen when serious negotiations start? Or a paddock whinger phones up James Phillips after a bad match and twines about the result? Or an agent starts asking for a couple of quid extra for a player? Or someone farts in the boardroom?

Whoever comes in, if anyone, needs to be serious about it from the word go. Someone like Andrew Lapping for example, who's put 12 months hard work and effort into trying to save the club - that's the type of dedication and interest we need.

ChampagneSupernova wrote:
Ive said it before - the mystery investor is clearly not a serious option. I think he/she probably does exist but their interest will have been massively exaggerated. Anyone serious wouldn't wait 2 months and still not have even spoken to anyone at the club, even on the phone. Its a nonsense, the footballing equivilent of blokes who go to car garages 'for a look around' but never buy a car. The interest in CUFC will inevitably come to nothing. Its just a diversionary tactic to enable them to sack off Lapping. Just like the new MD is a diversion from their own incompetence.

Bumble wrote:

Knowing who the investor is is relevant as many fans don't believe one exists as discussed above and secondly the Trust membership won't agree to sell/dilute their shares without knowing the identity and track record of the investor so I can't see how the deal could be done before this.

The billionaire exists! Whether he takes over - we can only hope. Why did the Lapping deal fail? It’s a Class thing. Jenkins was never gonna work with a self-made working class ‘oik’ like Lapping. That’s what Carlisle Utd’s always been and - until AJ moves on (and at the moment he’s very much pulling all the strings) – we always will be.

Said this before maybe, just maybe AJ/JN are being strung along or even duped on the passing whim of this "Agent" apparently known to Jenkins. They have taken his word as gospel but the follow up hasn`t happened and because of the hole they have dug themselves any get out or admission that they`ve got it wrong is now difficult. Maybe this is why they are re-organising as somebody else said, so they are out of the firing line.

The funniest part is offering the new CUOSC a seat on the Holdings Co board, when in all these years they have kept them, the Trust and 2nd major shareholder, out, and even BLAMED them for the lack of any would be new investor/owner. Very very strange given that theTrust/CUOSC still hold the trump card.......................... ie to veto any outside investment if they don`t like the look of him.

Yeah maybe JN wants out of the firing-line but AJ is well above any of this – doesn’t really care what the public think – public opinion isn’t really on his radar.

AJ isn’t being strung along by the billionaire’s agent – he’s hoping the agent simply disappears alongside Andrew Lapping – allowing him to carry on controlling the club and indulge himself in his 19th century gentleman’s club ideals.

Shame is, of course, he’ll take the club down in the process. Always thought JN was public enemy number one - now convinced it’s Jenkins.

AJ has unfinished business at the club, every time he has had control he has taken the club to the edge, this time he intends finishing the job.

Moorlad wrote:
I am one of the most cynical people I know, my mantra is "Trust no one" and that applies particularly to football clubs.. As for age I'm sure I can beat you there too. I would be using a pensioners ticket, except of course in the interests of equality the club doesn't dish them out to females until 65, funny how that works considering the lack of equality in other areas, but I digress.

I did ask AJ if this deal fell through would the club actively look for investment and he said yes they would, both through the agent and elsewhere.

One thing that strikes me is I think as fans we made the Lapping deal seem bigger than it was. I know nothing of big business and am not going to speculate on the ins and outs of that deal, which as I understood it was to be just over a million cash injection. All very nice but what happens the following year? A million pounds goes nowhere in football, two bad years, one if our fanbase continues to dwindle and there are no player sales or cup runs. It's gone and we need that money again and more. This all the more if we were to progress up the Leagues.

A 1 million pound injection of cash, while welcome will not do anything for long term sustainability. The only things that can make the club sustainable are an incredibly rich sugar daddy who wants us to be his long term plaything (unlikely) or a much bigger committed fanbase, ie double what we get now would give us a much more sustainable club. It comes back to that old chestnut. To survive and prosper the most important thing at a football club are the fans, it should be tattoed on every employee.

A 1 million pound injection of cash, while welcome will not do anything for long term sustainability.

I think the idea was to clear the debts and start to run the club professionally with proper people in place to try and make the club more sustainable. Build a solid base to progress gradually.

Surely that's better than a wealthy individual coming in with no connection to Carlisle and probably buggering offf in a couple of years!

nobbyblue wrote:
Totally agree Nobby. I think the key for me was we were going to get a high class MD which is something we badly need.

Bumble wrote:
Ha, we're a pair of old cynics then, good to know I'm not the only one.

I also had problems with the Lapping view of things I have to say. It wasn't the money alone which bothered me, it was the fact that there would be no money for team building or for the ground. More importantly it was the very real problem, potentially, that it gave the dinosaurs more power (or certainly didn't remove any), in that their shareholdings were safe (although adjusted slightly and Pattison all but removed). For me this was massively unsatisfactory, but I presumed he had something in mind. Now I'm sure he did since they took against him so violently.

I'm all for the club being self sufficient and sustainable, and that was what he was aiming for more than anything else, by clearing the decks and putting business people in there. That plan wasn't ideal, but would have been better than sitting round doing nothing while the current stadium drops to bits around us, in the vain hope some supermarket is going to drop millions on us to build a new one half the size.

Also agree while it would be very nice to have loads of money thrown at our club, Lappings business plan would have given the club a better chance of long term stability and have made the club self supporting along the Swansea model route.

Like everyone else I suppose I can only guess. Lapping seems to have had nothing more than a list of investors who he wanted to invest in the club. He ran a very successful charm offensive on the is board but he also made it clear Nixon et al would be out if it all went through. Nixon seems to have got hold of his list of 'potential investors', gone round them and asked that they simply give the money to the existing management. I can only assume the potential investors have refused to pony up any cash so the whole Lapping thing is dead in the water. I would also guess that 'the billionaire' was one of the names on the list so Nixon already has a pretty shrewd idea of whether that will yield anything.
Nixon now seems to be doing a lessons learned exercise from the Lapping offer so hopefully we will see the better ideas appearing anyway. As for future investment I think Nixon is hoping we get a good start to the league campaign and it is all simply forgotten.

nobbyblue wrote:
But once you clear the debts 'Nobby' is it really going to be all plain sailing? Are thousands of fans suddenly going to come back because we are debt free? and at the end of the day if you don't have a 'winning' team, not many will bother to return anyway, in a couple of years time we would be back to where we are now. I agree that a billionaire without much connection to the club is probably not great, but the alternative with Lapping always made me feel uncomfortable.