December 2019 General Election Thread

Chilledsilly wrote: Miss information alert
Fake news lives ...

Austin giving a statement about labour being unfit to govern and loan your vote to Tory...
He's payed by the Tory machine and therefore his opinion means very little..


Fake news laffy...as usual

You're right - he has got a job as envoy to Israel. Former barrow mp John woodcock is another former labour mp who has got a job working for the government. They are forming a new centrist movement. Don't know if their jobs are Tory-paid or non-partisan civil service though?

What’s wrong with bring envoy to Israel Unless you’re anti Semitic.

One for Kes-does being an unpaid envoy mean you are ‘on the payroll of the Tories?’

Laffy wrote: Paid, not payed.I’m a stickler for spelling and grammar.

Add John Woodcock to the list and of course the body representing British Jews.Others will join the queue.I would include his deputy but he lost all credibility when he called out Leon Britton and others-whilst deputy leader of .... the Labour Party.Fake news that caused massive damage to innocent people, including the dead.

The best laugh today is being told that Labour’s spending pledges are OTT because they won’t have time to spend it all!I might watch Brewster’ Millions tonight on the back of that howler.

Good job you're not a stickler for punctuation reading that.

Noted!

According to the Lib Dem’s today, if they manage to get a majority there’ll accept that people don’t want brexit and the vote was fair.

If they don’t get in they won’t accept that people want brexit and the vote wasn’t fair.

Odd odd party - should be decimated

Laffy wrote: What’s wrong with bring envoy to Israel Unless you’re anti Semitic.

Did I say there was anything wrong with it old fruit. I certainly didn't.

Bluedazblue wrote:

Mammoth wrote: We can agree that high inflation is a problem and, although I think you are overlooking the role of the Conservative government of the early 70's in causing that high inflation, I think the unions back then also made mistakes by over playing their hand which may well have made a bad situation worse. This ultimately cost them and the Labour left dear though didn't it. 40 years in the wilderness so far and they would be foolish to repeat the same mistakes. I just can't see it as a realistic risk, McDonnell and McCluskey have this huge warning from history and there will be plenty on the left of politics, as well as the right, ready to reign them in if they did try to act irresponsibly.

In defence of the unions though, every individual will want to make the case for an above inflation pay rise and improved working conditions when they have the chance. Few have that bargaining power with their employer but unions are able to do this for people collectively. You make out that this only benefits those in the unions but you overlook that those unionised jobs are part of a larger economy in which everyone competes. If pay and conditions improve in one sector then this will also have to spread out into the wider economy or those other sectors will lose their best people.

Today's much lower inflation is also a problem because incomes are not keeping up with it. Since 2010 prices have risen by 23% but household income has only risen by 6%. The blame for today's low wages is entirely down to choices made by the Conservative party to attack organised labour, to roll back workers rights to a tribunal, to impose public sector pay freezes, to choose not to invest in industry and infrastructure, to reduce benefits, the list goes on.

Britain is the only major economy where earnings have fallen even as growth has returned and Labour has a plan to make this growth work for the workers.

Immigration at record levels lead to the fall in wages. Wage levels are largely determined by supply and demand and productivity. If there is a scarcity of labour then wages will rise. If there is a surplus of labour then wages will stagnate or fall.

If a large number of non-skilled workers enters the workforce productivity per capita falls and wages are supressed.

Unions can argue for higher wages and governments can legislate for higher a higher minimum wage, but ultimately some other group within the economy pays for those higher wages, be it the consumer or other employees higher up the pay scale.

Yes it has to come from somewhere and that somewhere should be from the excess profiteers. The economy is now growing but the wage share is still falling with record levels of in work poverty, so someone other than the workers is collecting all of the benefits from this growth.

As you point out, mass uncontrolled immigration is one reason for the fall in wages and the effect is amplified when it is combined with the Tory attacks on organised labour, rolling back workers rights, imposing public sector pay freezes, lack of investment in industry and infrastructure, benefit reduction, etc.

Who benefits from the low wage economy where worker is pitted against worker? It's not the unions and the Labour movement, its the the wealthy and privileged donors to the Conservative party who get to drive down wages and increase their profits. Labour aren't the party of uncontrolled immigration, that's the Tories who told us they were going to cut migration to the 10's of thousands but instead delivered record net migration (336,000 in 2015) for the benefit of their backers. Never trust a Tory.

Labour's policy on immigration is to develop and implement fair immigration control and to take decisive
action to end the exploitation of migrant labour undercutting workers’ pay and conditions.

franksidebottom wrote:

Mammoth wrote:

franksidebottom wrote: Christ is Markovitch still trotting out the ‘Tories have killed 120,000 pensioners’ line? The line he was pulled up for ages ago, which was explained to him was merely speculation and estimation, yet he still regards as fact and gospel.

He’s even got a gullible deciple, in mammoth, who is quoting the same mis-truth. Markovitch is well known on here, and perhaps other places, as a misinterpreter of articles and an expert in fake news, don’t be taken in by him and certainly don’t quote anything which he’s printed as you too will be made to look a fool.

Here’s the truth about Markovitch’s claim...

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factchec...y-kill-120000-people

fullfact.org/health/austerity-120000-unnecessary-deaths/

Your links don't say that the claim is incorrect, they say the claim is plausible but that cause and effect can't be proven. It's like trying to prove that any one weather event is due to climate change. There may be a number of possible explanations for any particular event but each event is part of a trend for which there is a much greater degree of certainty. So the figure is disputable but do you really believe that you can cut health and social care spending without any impact on outcomes? If you do then I would suggest that it is you who is gullible.

Furthermore, the study is only into the effects of health and social care spending cuts, what about tory cuts to the police, fire service, people who inspect buildings and food standards, highway maintenance, swimming pools and leisure centres, benefit cuts and job cuts that mean people can't eat properly, etc, I would suggest that the true death toll of tory austerity is far higher than 120,000.

Labour are committed to keeping people fit and well including by properly investing in the NHS and building a new National Care Service.

The BMJ paper doesn’t prove anything yet people have taken it as fact to suit their own agenda. To quote people on this very thread...

“government policies ARE responsible for 120k deaths”

“120k excess deaths 2010-2017 DUE TO Tory and Lib Dem cuts”

Both statements are pretty matter of fact, whereas the reality is anything but. Here’s a few quotes from the paper itself and subsequent reports...

“MAY be other mediating factors”

“MAY be ASSOCIATED with a substantial mortality gap”

“findings should be HANDLED WITH CARE”

Even a University of Cambridge Professor found it was “SPECULATIVE to link excess deaths to health and social care spending”

The majority of the number mentioned isn’t even fact, it’s a projection!

The conclusion is that the paper DOES NOT prove austerity caused excess deaths.

Of course not, it's an estimate with a stated margin of error, by definition it's not proof (and by the way the scientific method never proves a theory, it just continually disproves competing theories so that we get more and more certain that our model of how things are is a good description of reality). That doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with it.

You're not going to win. 43 (?) experts wrote the paper and agree. They have rolled out one guy. He has said that its plausible but there may be other reasons as well. Those reason include things like low pensions, inflation- in fact things that the Government control. So he agrees with the conclusion, he is just getting there in a more round about way. The more evidence you roll out the more Frank will dig in.

I think though Frank gets accused of intransigence but maybe the left is wrong, and he is right. If you change perspectives maybe Johnson is a forward thinker that is unappreciated.

1) Educated middle class people are telling unskilled workers and the unemployed who is best for them and the unemployed are vehemently rejecting that argument. If you can't persuade them with facts when does your obligation end. If they join the 120k does it matter to you? Why not let them have what they want?


2) Not only is this a battle you can't win, it's a war you can't win. Frank isn't going to wake up one day and realise you were right. If he falls off his bike, breaks his leg, gets no hospital treatment and loses his job he will still persuade himself life would have been worse if Corbyn was Prime Minister. So the outcome is irrelevant because the perception of the outcome won't change. So why bother?


3) Climate change scientists are now saying we need population control as a key pillar of saving the planet. The Tories are culling people. If you have to choose between you or Frank and Alan being sacrificed you would choose them. Phrase the question as 'do you want a prime minister who gives all the money to Hamas or one who'll get a jolly spiffing deal with the US?', and they charge towards the waiting train carriages cheering. So from a green perspective there is a strong argument for supporting Johnson. We need to cut the population and we have willing volunteers.

4) The latest figures show only 27% of graduates vote Tory. If Johnson gets in and annihilates the poorest sections of society he is simultaneously destroying his own voter base. So letting him in could open the door to a Labour Government in 5 years who renationalise the NHS. An NHS no longer burdened with those members of society whose poor decision-making means that they are the most at risk from long term illness.

Johnson could be the Prime Minister who actually gives the populace what they really want, safeguards the planet and provides the best long term options for the future of a free NHS. Frank was right all along!

I don’t think anyone is listening to you anymore Marko

Let’s not get too complicated Conservatives look after the rich Labour looks after the rest of us

Labour.
A bunch of rich people
convincing poor people
to vote for rich people
by telling poor people
that 'other' rich people
are the reason they're poor.

Crossrail's opening has been delayed by another year. Another disaster for the incompetent Labour Mayor of London Sadiq Khan. Boris would have made sure it opened on time or he'd have been dead in another ditch.

Deluded

yoonited wrote: Labour.
A bunch of rich people
convincing poor people
to vote for rich people
by telling poor people
that 'other' rich people
are the reason they're poor.

Works better like this.

Conservatives.
A bunch of rich people
convincing poor people
to vote for rich people
by telling poor people
that 'other' poor people
are the reason they're poor.

That's how I first saw it and is more accurate.

Marko, I know your comments there were tongue in cheek to make a different point but I'd like to touch on the idea that Labour is a middle class project.

Tory propaganda is everywhere and endlessly amplified by our uncritical establishment media. No wonder that you hear it parrotted everywhere you go from all walks of life. The middle class people who have swallowed it are generally those that call themselves "centrists", a term that doesn't stand up to any political or economic scrutiny when you consider that today's centre is well to the right of Thatcher.

For 20 years now this right wing establishment "centrist" ideology is all that has been on offer in British politics. Working people were betrayed by New Labour and as a consequence many working people still have no faith in politics as an answer to their problems.

Not everyone has been taken in by establishment propaganda though and the Labour movement still is composed primarily of working people who can see that change is needed. The brexit vote was a massive 2 fingers to the establishment and showed that there is a massive appetite for change in this country. The forces that want to continue with the status quo and business-as-usual for the 1% at the cost to the 99% hold all the cards. The establishment wins with either the status quo or a tory brexit. Only a Corbyn led Labour government is willing to take them on and deliver positive change.

Markovitch wrote: You're not going to win. 43 (?) experts wrote the paper and agree. They have rolled out one guy. He has said that its plausible but there may be other reasons as well. Those reason include things like low pensions, inflation- in fact things that the Government control. So he agrees with the conclusion, he is just getting there in a more round about way. The more evidence you roll out the more Frank will dig in.

I think though Frank gets accused of intransigence but maybe the left is wrong, and he is right. If you change perspectives maybe Johnson is a forward thinker that is unappreciated.

1) Educated middle class people are telling unskilled workers and the unemployed who is best for them and the unemployed are vehemently rejecting that argument. If you can't persuade them with facts when does your obligation end. If they join the 120k does it matter to you? Why not let them have what they want?


2) Not only is this a battle you can't win, it's a war you can't win. Frank isn't going to wake up one day and realise you were right. If he falls off his bike, breaks his leg, gets no hospital treatment and loses his job he will still persuade himself life would have been worse if Corbyn was Prime Minister. So the outcome is irrelevant because the perception of the outcome won't change. So why bother?


3) Climate change scientists are now saying we need population control as a key pillar of saving the planet. The Tories are culling people. If you have to choose between you or Frank and Alan being sacrificed you would choose them. Phrase the question as 'do you want a prime minister who gives all the money to Hamas or one who'll get a jolly spiffing deal with the US?', and they charge towards the waiting train carriages cheering. So from a green perspective there is a strong argument for supporting Johnson. We need to cut the population and we have willing volunteers.

4) The latest figures show only 27% of graduates vote Tory. If Johnson gets in and annihilates the poorest sections of society he is simultaneously destroying his own voter base. So letting him in could open the door to a Labour Government in 5 years who renationalise the NHS. An NHS no longer burdened with those members of society whose poor decision-making means that they are the most at risk from long term illness.

Johnson could be the Prime Minister who actually gives the populace what they really want, safeguards the planet and provides the best long term options for the future of a free NHS. Frank was right all along!

I skipped most of that irrelevant nonsense but did notice your last sentence, I’m glad you’ve finally seen the light. Almost light a eureka moment - this could be the first day of the rest of your life.

Taffy-P wrote: Let’s not get too complicated Conservatives look after the rich Labour looks after the rest of us

You mean “for the many not for the Jew”?

Tories look after the normal sensible folk, Labour champion the rights of the bone-idle and everyone else.

High Street wrote:

Markovitch wrote: If I;m not allowed to call Alan snowflake or Boris BJ can we not call the First Minister wee nippy. Kick out racism!

Edinburgh's trams were not our finest hour, though not 10x over, massive exaggeration. Massive. Buttons compared to HS2, Hinckley Point and Syrian death squads though of course. The problem is they appraise projects over a much too long a period, any project becomes profitable if you use 50 years- well except Hinckley Point

The first service left the city's Gyle shopping centre at 5am. Passengers included tram enthusiasts Marjory Broom, 59, her husband George, 63, and son Christopher, 31. "It was chock-a-block, and it was a real carnival atmosphere on board, with people cheering as the tram set off," Marjory Broom told reporters. Bringing happiness to wee Scottish faces, what price joy eh? Tram enthusiasts, salt of the earth.

He didn’t say Edinburgh trams were 10x over budget. Are you absolutely sure you’re a qualified accountant? I’d hate to be using you if you can’t read a couple of paragraphs correctly. He didn’t mention that the tram project was cut back from the original route, to save money, though. Or the cancellation of the Glasgow Airport Rail Link, to pay for it.
Or the unfinished Queensferry Crossing, the dangerous new Sick Kids Hospital, which was 24 hours away from opening, the killing of patients at Queen Elizabeth Hospital by pigeon droppings.

You can't afford me. If you don't like it go home. Do everyone a favour. You live in our country. If it's so terrible why don't you and David Bailey bugger off back south?

It's very difficult to talk about a middle class project because who knows what the middle class is. It's considerably more than about money.

But the demographic has shifted hugely from the 70s. I see a pattern on here of working class, brexit supporting, sun reading, tory voting people. Alan being the stereotype. They resonate with the tory message that issues are caused by by immigrants, Corbyn is a terrorist etc

The second group is the Labour supporters who appear to be be better educated and don't accept the arguments.

Laffy who ought to be the most stereotypical is actually the odd one out

I would say therefore the Labour Party is the party of the middle class.

Markovitch wrote: It's very difficult to talk about a middle class project because who knows what the middle class is. It's considerably more than about money.

But the demographic has shifted hugely from the 70s. I see a pattern on here of working class, brexit supporting, sun reading, tory voting people. Alan being the stereotype. They resonate with the tory message that issues are caused by by immigrants, Corbyn is a terrorist etc

The second group is the Labour supporters who appear to be be better educated and don't accept the arguments.

Laffy who ought to be the most stereotypical is actually the odd one out

I would say therefore the Labour Party is the party of the middle class.

What about brexit supporting labour voting people, are they better or worse educated?

Markovitch wrote:

High Street wrote:

Markovitch wrote: If I;m not allowed to call Alan snowflake or Boris BJ can we not call the First Minister wee nippy. Kick out racism!

Edinburgh's trams were not our finest hour, though not 10x over, massive exaggeration. Massive. Buttons compared to HS2, Hinckley Point and Syrian death squads though of course. The problem is they appraise projects over a much too long a period, any project becomes profitable if you use 50 years- well except Hinckley Point

The first service left the city's Gyle shopping centre at 5am. Passengers included tram enthusiasts Marjory Broom, 59, her husband George, 63, and son Christopher, 31. "It was chock-a-block, and it was a real carnival atmosphere on board, with people cheering as the tram set off," Marjory Broom told reporters. Bringing happiness to wee Scottish faces, what price joy eh? Tram enthusiasts, salt of the earth.

He didn’t say Edinburgh trams were 10x over budget. Are you absolutely sure you’re a qualified accountant? I’d hate to be using you if you can’t read a couple of paragraphs correctly. He didn’t mention that the tram project was cut back from the original route, to save money, though. Or the cancellation of the Glasgow Airport Rail Link, to pay for it.
Or the unfinished Queensferry Crossing, the dangerous new Sick Kids Hospital, which was 24 hours away from opening, the killing of patients at Queen Elizabeth Hospital by pigeon droppings.

You can't afford me. If you don't like it go home. Do everyone a favour. You live in our country. If it's so terrible why don't you and David Bailey bugger off back south?

Ah, joyous nationalism? No argument, just personal. Where am l supposed to move back to?
Sometimes l think you’re a complete [censored], and then you prove it.

Your problem Marko is it was your party who created the disenfranchised by taking them for granted.Labour heartlands have had enough of fat, lazy, beer swilling unions telling them what to do.Step forward the SNP and Farage offering them hope and when you are left behind, or ignored, hope is very attractive.

As for the middle class,I was born into a very poor family and have clawed my way to a comfortable life through hard work.Im happy to report that this country rewards hard work-it doesn’t punish it or tax it too much.Im also in a good place to say that Corbyn and co will destroy hard working businesses through their fantasy policies.Why do I say that?Because I have absolutely no intention of working long hours, taking risks with my own capital, only to be punished by excessive levels of tax in the name of redistribution.Corbyn is a disgrace-he is anti western and deluded.

Reckon Dulwich Hamlet are voting Labour judging by a few of the slogans on show.

Unions get a lot of criticism but I think we need them to look after workers rights because there are still many employers out there who mistreat their staff. I'm not including you in that Laffy because in spite of our disagreements you do genuinely come across as someone who cares about treating staff right, but there are a lot of employers out there who don't.

I was born into a council /military house as well. I worked 3 years in a supermarket before uni because after getting kicked out of football I had no qualifications so we've all been there.

There are no unions to speak of. The tories have moved from benevolent capitalism to pure greed. That movement has been supported by the propaganda of the press. Some people buy it, some don't. That's why Blair pushed university education so hard because graduates vote Labour. Same now, Corbyn and sturgeon are pushing votes for 16 year olds because they don't get news from traditional sources. Though Google and Facebook are now working with the tories to nail that down

Markovitch wrote: I was born into a council /military house as well. I worked 3 years in a supermarket before uni because after getting kicked out of football I had no qualifications so we've all been there.

You could bring a tear to a glass eye great story.

Quote of the post.

"we've all been there"

11 Labour candidates now urged to quit due to anti Semitic views and Blunkett coming out with views on a Michael Foot 1983 style hammering

Corbyn doing a fine job

And the Tories have nobody that needs to quit ??
Dear god .. !!

My post was about Labour-now a shadow cabinet minister on the rack since I went out for a ride this morning.I can’t keep up!

If you have Tories who are anti Semitic, then lists have the list.

Boris speaking to business people in Northern Ireland seems not to know what his own Brexit deal actually involves.




www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/...pp_Copy_to_clipboard

Have a look at what’s happening in Jarrod mate

If you mean Jarrow then yes and here's more:

Labour MPs face fresh claims of antisemitic and anti-LGBT remarks

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/09...pp_Copy_to_clipboard

Killing 120k people or calling someone a poof. Which should be headline news?

The worst thing that can happen to corbyn is that he will become prime minister. Bring on boris and let him [censored] the country, no one cares anyway

Kessler wrote: Unions get a lot of criticism but I think we need them to look after workers rights because there are still many employers out there who mistreat their staff. I'm not including you in that Laffy because in spite of our disagreements you do genuinely come across as someone who cares about treating staff right, but there are a lot of employers out there who don't.

Unions don't give a flying fig about workers rights, as they don't represent them. They are greedy and only think of themselves, and provide sound-bites for a Socialist agenda.

Why not improve education and opportunity instead of burdening others to do things for those that could and should do for themselves ?

There are just over 6m Union Members in the UK, there are over 31m people fully or self employed in the UK, of which over 16m work for small Companies.

' Workers rights ' are a killer for small businesses with all the baggage and cost they create. I know a local family business that has over 15 people employed that has a future cost problem due to the imbalance between state pensions and the cost of living. He will have no choice but to put massive business costs into pensions for his employee's. he and his wife started the business 30 years ago and built it up, all the employees are locals, he already has a profit sharing scheme

He will need to pass this cost on by increasing prices, this will make his business noncompetitive v the large corporates, he is seriously thinking of packing in and retiring.

Most of this you can thank Mr Brown for...........

Oh, and only 2.7m of those Union Members work in the real world of the private sector, or 8% of those fully employed.

Markovitch wrote: Killing 120k people or calling someone a poof. Which should be headline news?

The worst thing that can happen to corbyn is that he will become prime minister. Bring on boris and let him [censored] the country, no one cares anyway

If you were wise, you would be lobbying to allow the English to vote for Scottish Independence, then your dreams could be fulfilled. Think of all those carefree days marauding and protesting round Faslane in your frock drinking scotch to wash the haggis down. lang may yer lum reek....

Calling the unions now ...
Suggest you look a little bit more about the history of the unions ....before slagging them off .. !!
Brings a line of ...

What did the Unions ever do for us ...


Now ..

What did the Tories ever do for us ?

Mrs ExiledJock got a new dentist this week. He commutes from London to Carlisle.

The Tories' real success over the past few decades has been their ability to convince ordinary folk that they are the steady hand. It's not that they are any good, but they've got us believing the/any alternative would be worse.

thesilentone wrote: ' Workers rights ' are a killer for small businesses with all the baggage and cost they create.

But it's important we have workers rights, because if we don't then many businesses have shown they will abuse and exploit their staff. Having legal protections, and a union who can fight your corner if it comes to that is important.

thesilentone wrote:

Markovitch wrote: Killing 120k people or calling someone a poof. Which should be headline news?

The worst thing that can happen to corbyn is that he will become prime minister. Bring on boris and let him [censored] the country, no one cares anyway

If you were wise, you would be lobbying to allow the English to vote for Scottish Independence, then your dreams could be fulfilled. Think of all those carefree days marauding and protesting round Faslane in your frock drinking scotch to wash the haggis down. lang may yer lum reek....

You are absolutely correct! Brexit voters are strong supporters of independence in England. Only when they cross the border they lose their common sense, but not their ability to claim disability allowance.

Boris is a huge campaign asset for Scottish independence as well. That's why I'm such a fan. Up the Blues!

Markovitch wrote:

thesilentone wrote:

Markovitch wrote: Killing 120k people or calling someone a poof. Which should be headline news?

The worst thing that can happen to corbyn is that he will become prime minister. Bring on boris and let him [censored] the country, no one cares anyway

If you were wise, you would be lobbying to allow the English to vote for Scottish Independence, then your dreams could be fulfilled. Think of all those carefree days marauding and protesting round Faslane in your frock drinking scotch to wash the haggis down. lang may yer lum reek....

You are absolutely correct! Brexit voters are strong supporters of independence in England. Only when they cross the border they lose their common sense, but not their ability to claim disability allowance.

Boris is a huge campaign asset for Scottish independence as well. That's why I'm such a fan. Up the Blues!

Why are you so keen to get your independence yet at the same time so keen to deny us our independence from the EU?

As for Boris, just remember if he gets into power, Sturgeon is going to have to do some serious crawling for you to get Indyref 2.

Ian "Markovitch" Blackford at his finest.


But but but but

Dentonholmersimpson wrote:

Markovitch wrote:

thesilentone wrote:

Markovitch wrote: Killing 120k people or calling someone a poof. Which should be headline news?

The worst thing that can happen to corbyn is that he will become prime minister. Bring on boris and let him [censored] the country, no one cares anyway

If you were wise, you would be lobbying to allow the English to vote for Scottish Independence, then your dreams could be fulfilled. Think of all those carefree days marauding and protesting round Faslane in your frock drinking scotch to wash the haggis down. lang may yer lum reek....

You are absolutely correct! Brexit voters are strong supporters of independence in England. Only when they cross the border they lose their common sense, but not their ability to claim disability allowance.

Boris is a huge campaign asset for Scottish independence as well. That's why I'm such a fan. Up the Blues!

Why are you so keen to get your independence yet at the same time so keen to deny us our independence from the EU?

As for Boris, just remember if he gets into power, Sturgeon is going to have to do some serious crawling for you to get Indyref 2.

He'll be trawling @anotherangryvoice to copy and paste a reply so it may take a while.
Gets all his stuff from there does our Markovitch.

Don't you Sad Lad.

Denton, why do you think I want to stop you coming out the EU? Go for it. Your country, do what you want, nothing to do me, but leave us to ours. All I ask.

Chilledsilly wrote: Calling the unions now ...
Suggest you look a little bit more about the history of the unions ....before slagging them off .. !!
Brings a line of ...

What did the Unions ever do for us ...


Now ..

What did the Tories ever do for us ?

Unions were set up for the right reasons and did a huge ammount to stop unscrupulous bosses from exploiting the the poor. Then they lost sight of the objectives and got greedier and greedier, and along the way p'd off there own workers and members.

The ONLY time a Union has any clout today is when they represent a monopoly, very sad. The Union leaders stabbed the rank and file in the back on too many occasions, and what we have now is a politicised bunch of left wing greedy barstweards, who have more in common with Squealer and Napoleon..........

If we didn't still have employers who exploited their staff and paid crap wages, we wouldn't need unions.

Kessler wrote: If we didn't still have employers who exploited their staff and paid crap wages, we wouldn't need unions.

Unfortunately no Union out there can do anything about crap wages, this is down to the individual for accepting those terms and conditions in the first place.

Try using the valuable experience that you have learned and applying it to a company that will value you more.

Markovitch wrote: Denton, why do you think I want to stop you coming out the EU? Go for it. Your country, do what you want, nothing to do me, but leave us to ours. All I ask.

The fact you lost the first Indyref means you can't come out with the same old, same old '' Scotland didn't vote for brexit'' crap because you are part of thr union and the union voted to leave.

How many referendums do have to have before you accept the result of at least one of them.

Deluded alert
... any old excuse to try and justify a stereotype....
Without the unions we really are in trouble..
Apparently standing together as one,and to stand up for ones rights and conditions is frowned upon by some people on here ???
Hope you never need help !!