The Brexit Thread

Bruntonpasty wrote: Deckchair, If the referendum chooses to leave the EU, do you believe we will actually leave?

Personally, I don't. I suspect there will be concessions and deals done, and we will be told that all is now well with us and the EU, there won't be another referendum and we are now staying in. Quite where this would leave the countries main political parties is any ones guess. There are divisions in both tory and labour as it is now, what would happen at the next election?

Completely agree mate, regardless of the result there is no chance we will leave, whether people will be satisfied with the deals done is anyones guess. As one of the main points in this referendum is immigration I can't see freedom of movement being scrapped, at best there will be limits put on migrants abilities to claim benefits.

At the same time I don't think that voting to remain will mean we move closer to a European Superstate (as much as I would support that) as there isn't the politically appetite for it here or in a few other countries.

Incidentally the Swiss are having a referendum tomorrow on introducing a basic income for every citizen of £1755 a month, and one the negatives put forward for that is that it could attract migrants to move there to claim it.

I think the the conservatives will suffer the most whatever the result, both sides of the vote have been involved in mud slinging and I cant see it being happy families once it's over. My main fear is that if the main parties are weak at the next election it allows territory to he gained by more niche/extreme parties such as UKIP and Britain First, especially if we decide to remain.

Post-referendum I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of the votes on a county and migrant population density basis. Mainly because I'd expect counties with lower population densities as a whole and lower migrant populations (Cumbria, N.Yorks, Highlands and Islands) to have more Leave voters and visa-versa.

Immigration is not an issue for me. Especially with the Polish birds that work with me....

I just want out because of the whole political system. Neil Kinnock-couldn't even win against John Major,then becomes an unelected Commisioner for years.

For those that complain about the EU being undemocratic and unelected I saw a great clip today to open your eyes slightly.

The UK has an unelected Head of State, an unelected upper house, an unelected privy council and a house of commons that is elected by a crooked electoral system. And yet we think we are in a position to criticise.

DeckchairBlue wrote: For those that complain about the EU being undemocratic and unelected I saw a great clip today to open your eyes slightly.

The UK has an unelected Head of State, an unelected upper house, an unelected privy council and a house of commons that is elected by a crooked electoral system. And yet we think we are in a position to criticise.

To be fair though, we may be able to change some of those over time, we are very unlikely to be able to effect any great or meaningful change within the EU, too many snouts in the trough.

All I was really trying to say with my previous post was that we will have an immigration crisis whichever way we vote.

Voting out will no stop immigration.
People will still want to come here because they think they will be better off.

Immigration is a Mega-Trend issues that will not go away any time soon.

We are an Island Nation and act like one, we have supported immigration over generations, when it suited us. Everyone is sympathetic to the desperate families fleeing from Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and N/Africa, but at the same time we adopt the NIMBY attitude. This reluctance is compounded when we see reports of those who exploit our system.

But, what of our future, who are we to be. Low incomes and high cost requires borrowing, this suits the elite ruling class, without money we are nothing. Cheap labour helps keep costs down, so business owners like this. Being a member of the EU does little for workers rights (despite all the rhetoric) ask those who work for Sports Direct. What can the Unions do, nothing ! Why, because they say they are not OUR members, so the transient labour force is there to be exploited.

As for democracy, we have a system in the UK that we like (other than those idiots that turn out on Bank Holidays and wreck the joint) we are also in a position that we can change things.

DeckchairBlue wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Flatcap wrote: The biggest proportion of immigrants coming to this country are from outside the EU which supposedly we have full control of. We do not seem to be very good at controlling these numbers never mind those from the EU.

And who do you think is making us take the Syrians in the first place with their concocted agreements ?

Greece wanted a couple of Million Euros to pay for a force to shove them back out to sea and what did the EU do ? Set up a scheme that costs hundreds of millions of Euros to let them in. You simply couldnt make it up could you.

Almost twice as many Non-EU citizens migrate to the UK each year than EU Citizens, so the claims that a points system works to reduce migration is false, because we already have one and migration has risen both from within the EU and outside of it every year for the last 10 years.

We've agreed to take 20k over the next 5 years. As a comparison, Canada resettled 25k last year alone. It's hardly like we are taking a lot is it.

Why shouldn't we provide relief to those in need ? We are the ones that destabilised the whole region and bombed their homes. Why shouldn't we deal with the consequences ?

That simply isn't true.... last year it was pretty much 50/50 between EU and non-EU migrants.

That really is missing the point though.... with non-EU migrants you can set the rules as an independent country..... if we wanted to reduce those numbers we could clamp down on the entry requirements and reduce the levels of legal non-EU migrants.... with the EU you have absolutely no control whatsoever. It's all about control.... there is absolutely nothing to stop a couple of million Spanish, Italians and Greeks coming to live here if their economies implode.... which is a very real possibility. With the ever expanding EU zone migration for EU countries is likely to greatly increase over the next few years as additional countries are added. We should be putting ourselves in a position where we can control the levels of immigration and in a position where we can be sure that those that enter are adding value and helping to fill skill gaps for our economy.

DeckchairBlue wrote:

Bruntonpasty wrote: Deckchair, If the referendum chooses to leave the EU, do you believe we will actually leave?

Personally, I don't. I suspect there will be concessions and deals done, and we will be told that all is now well with us and the EU, there won't be another referendum and we are now staying in. Quite where this would leave the countries main political parties is any ones guess. There are divisions in both tory and labour as it is now, what would happen at the next election?

Completely agree mate, regardless of the result there is no chance we will leave, whether people will be satisfied with the deals done is anyones guess. As one of the main points in this referendum is immigration I can't see freedom of movement being scrapped, at best there will be limits put on migrants abilities to claim benefits.

At the same time I don't think that voting to remain will mean we move closer to a European Superstate (as much as I would support that) as there isn't the politically appetite for it here or in a few other countries.

Incidentally the Swiss are having a referendum tomorrow on introducing a basic income for every citizen of £1755 a month, and one the negatives put forward for that is that it could attract migrants to move there to claim it.

I think the the conservatives will suffer the most whatever the result, both sides of the vote have been involved in mud slinging and I cant see it being happy families once it's over. My main fear is that if the main parties are weak at the next election it allows territory to he gained by more niche/extreme parties such as UKIP and Britain First, especially if we decide to remain.

Post-referendum I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of the votes on a county and migrant population density basis. Mainly because I'd expect counties with lower population densities as a whole and lower migrant populations (Cumbria, N.Yorks, Highlands and Islands) to have more Leave voters and visa-versa.

Personally I think it would be political suicide for the Conservatives to ignore a referendum result to leave, regardless of further concessions.... I'd be massively surprised if they ignore the will of the electorate.... it could finish them as a party for a generation and force people towards parties like UKIP. The referendum is about much more than immigration.... for me it's more about legal and economic freedom. The right to set your own legal framework and to manage your own economy, so we can put our interest as a nation first... instead of Germany and France's interest, as the current position in reality. The size of our global free trade zone whilst an EU member currently is tiny... compared to that of independent countries like Switzerland and Iceland who's free trade zones are about 7 or 8 times the size of our currently. The EU are actively preventing us from having free trade agreements with massive emerging markets like China and India.... economically we have to stop just thinking of the EU as our market.... the world is a much bigger place and we should be trading with as much of it as possible on a free trade basis.... that simply isn't possible within the EU as the protectionist French will veto potential trade deals, as they are set to do with the EU -USA deal currently. We might be losing tariff free access to the EU market... but we stand to make a massive net gain by being able to set up free trade deals with the much larger markets throughout the world. Ask yourself why if Iceland can set up a free trade deal with China why can't the EU manage it? The answer is that the EU don't want it... they are inward looking and want to protect what is theirs, rather than exploring massive new economic opportunities with developing markets.

Northumbrian wrote:

DeckchairBlue wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Flatcap wrote: The biggest proportion of immigrants coming to this country are from outside the EU which supposedly we have full control of. We do not seem to be very good at controlling these numbers never mind those from the EU.

And who do you think is making us take the Syrians in the first place with their concocted agreements ?

Greece wanted a couple of Million Euros to pay for a force to shove them back out to sea and what did the EU do ? Set up a scheme that costs hundreds of millions of Euros to let them in. You simply couldnt make it up could you.

Almost twice as many Non-EU citizens migrate to the UK each year than EU Citizens, so the claims that a points system works to reduce migration is false, because we already have one and migration has risen both from within the EU and outside of it every year for the last 10 years.

We've agreed to take 20k over the next 5 years. As a comparison, Canada resettled 25k last year alone. It's hardly like we are taking a lot is it.

Why shouldn't we provide relief to those in need ? We are the ones that destabilised the whole region and bombed their homes. Why shouldn't we deal with the consequences ?

That simply isn't true.... last year it was pretty much 50/50 between EU and non-EU migrants.

That really is missing the point though.... with non-EU migrants you can set the rules as an independent country..... if we wanted to reduce those numbers we could clamp down on the entry requirements and reduce the levels of legal non-EU migrants.... with the EU you have absolutely no control whatsoever. It's all about control.... there is absolutely nothing to stop a couple of million Spanish, Italians and Greeks coming to live here if their economies implode.... which is a very real possibility. With the ever expanding EU zone migration for EU countries is likely to greatly increase over the next few years as additional countries are added. We should be putting ourselves in a position where we can control the levels of immigration and in a position where we can be sure that those that enter are adding value and helping to fill skill gaps for our economy.

You do realise you're gonna upset dancingbear he seems to think its fine that all comers flood iinto Britain unfettered and he's one of the ' you're racist' camp if you in any way try to point out that huge numbers of incomers is destabilizing in the long term......ie year after year. How anybody cant see this is beyond comprehension.


Vote leave on 23rd

Didn't the Greek economy tank a couple of years ago ? And yet we aren't overrun by roving gangs of Feta sellers.

Huge numbers of Greeks have left the country to other EU countries , including the UK. 5% of their total population emigrated in 2012! Spain would be the biggest problem for us. We already have high numbers of Spanish youngsters entering this country to get away from the near 50% youth unemployment at home. You don't really notice the high numbers of migrants from these countries up here but if you were in the south you would. As English is most people's second language in the EU this is the easy option for relocating if things in their own country go down the pan.

seesaw50 wrote:

Northumbrian wrote:

DeckchairBlue wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Flatcap wrote: The biggest proportion of immigrants coming to this country are from outside the EU which supposedly we have full control of. We do not seem to be very good at controlling these numbers never mind those from the EU.

And who do you think is making us take the Syrians in the first place with their concocted agreements ?

Greece wanted a couple of Million Euros to pay for a force to shove them back out to sea and what did the EU do ? Set up a scheme that costs hundreds of millions of Euros to let them in. You simply couldnt make it up could you.

Almost twice as many Non-EU citizens migrate to the UK each year than EU Citizens, so the claims that a points system works to reduce migration is false, because we already have one and migration has risen both from within the EU and outside of it every year for the last 10 years.

We've agreed to take 20k over the next 5 years. As a comparison, Canada resettled 25k last year alone. It's hardly like we are taking a lot is it.

Why shouldn't we provide relief to those in need ? We are the ones that destabilised the whole region and bombed their homes. Why shouldn't we deal with the consequences ?

That simply isn't true.... last year it was pretty much 50/50 between EU and non-EU migrants.

That really is missing the point though.... with non-EU migrants you can set the rules as an independent country..... if we wanted to reduce those numbers we could clamp down on the entry requirements and reduce the levels of legal non-EU migrants.... with the EU you have absolutely no control whatsoever. It's all about control.... there is absolutely nothing to stop a couple of million Spanish, Italians and Greeks coming to live here if their economies implode.... which is a very real possibility. With the ever expanding EU zone migration for EU countries is likely to greatly increase over the next few years as additional countries are added. We should be putting ourselves in a position where we can control the levels of immigration and in a position where we can be sure that those that enter are adding value and helping to fill skill gaps for our economy.

You do realise you're gonna upset dancingbear he seems to think its fine that all comers flood iinto Britain unfettered and he's one of the ' you're racist' camp if you in any way try to point out that huge numbers of incomers is destabilizing in the long term......ie year after year. How anybody cant see this is beyond comprehension.


Vote leave on 23rd

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion I'm sure I've said on here several times I'm voting out. Did I not say the other day we could do with a few more migrant boats getting caught? You replied to it so you must have read it. That imo would do more for the out campaign than much of the shite propaganda both sides are currently using.

One point on immigration is being totally missed. Immigration has always been part of this country's history. Go back in time and look at the different races that have come here over the millenniathe majority of whom have stayed. Angles Saxons Jutes Danes Vikings Romans Normans etc. Nobody in this country can say they are truly English. For varying reasons this country has always been a magnet for immigrants either to conquer or just to make a better life and probably always will be.

Arragorn wrote: One point on immigration is being totally missed. Immigration has always been part of this country's history. Go back in time and look at the different races that have come here over the millenniathe majority of whom have stayed. Angles Saxons Jutes Danes Vikings Romans Normans etc. Nobody in this country can say they are truly English. For varying reasons this country has always been a magnet for immigrants either to conquer or just to make a better life and probably always will be.

at least all those over the past centuries had proper jobs and the decency to rape and pillage what they wanted, not get it handed on a plate.

*just popping out to get me tin hat.

very true

Every other country in the world outside the EU has a skills based immigration system. And yet nobody ever accuses them of all being racist. Its only in the UK that this seems to be the case. Ignoring of course that is how we deal with immigration from outside of the EU. Nobody says that's racist either. But the exact same controls on people within the EU (Who are mostly white and Christian) IS racist. The mind boggles at the stupidity of that argument. And yet it is constantly made.

This referendum has taught me how woeful misinformed and uneducated massive swathes of the UK population are when it comes to the realities of how the world and our political system works. Constant moaning about wanting the facts, yet, the facts are all there to be found. People expect someone to put them on a plate because they cant be bothered to do a bit of basic research on something so important, whichever side of the argument you end up supporting.

Another thing its taught me is how unimportant sovereignty and democracy has fallen as a priority for a lot of people, compared to previous generations. From the likes of suffragettes fighting to gain it and wars to protect it, we now have, well we might be ever so fractionally better off (maybe) economically without it, so sod it. Depressing really.

That's capitalism for you. Btw you say people should do the digging themselves. Maybe they should but I'd also expect the government of the day to give us the facts rather than spend £9 million of our money giving a one sided view. That applies whether there view was for or against. The public should have been presented with the facts not propaganda.

Arragorn wrote: One point on immigration is being totally missed. Immigration has always been part of this country's history. Go back in time and look at the different races that have come here over the millenniathe majority of whom have stayed. Angles Saxons Jutes Danes Vikings Romans Normans etc. Nobody in this country can say they are truly English. For varying reasons this country has always been a magnet for immigrants either to conquer or just to make a better life and probably always will be.

No I'm afraid it is you that is missing the point on immigration this time.... yes totally agree that there is no such thing as British historically and that we are a mongrel race.... but what the hell does history have to do with this debate? We need to control immigration as we simply do not have the houses, the schools, the NHS facilities, and the general infrastructure to cope with millions more people in this country.... it has nothing to do with race or stupid notions of being "British". This is not an argument about race, it is an argument about resources and economics. The leave campaign are saying that immigration will still be important to fill skill gaps.... but we should be controlling the types and number of people who are coming in to ensure that we get the quality immigrants in the places where they are needed... instead of the current EU open door which allows any EU citizen to walk into this country regardless of education and skill levels.Stop taking the lazy route and branding anyone that wants to control immigration racists as that is beyond stupid.

Dancingbear wrote: That's capitalism for you. Btw you say people should do the digging themselves. Maybe they should but I'd also expect the government of the day to give us the facts rather than spend £9 million of our money giving a one sided view. That applies whether there view was for or against. The public should have been presented with the facts not propaganda.

DB but thats the problem for the leave side no body can say for sure what will happen raging from being a total disaster to an absolute succsess as its never been done before there are no facts which really puts them on the back foot just defending the more outrageous claims made by the remainers.

Good fair post Blues86.

Both sides have scaremongered, neither side has really given cold hard facts.The two big issues seem to be immigration and the economy. Remain want to maintain the status quo as regards imigraton (pretty much) whereas Leave want to beef up the entry requirements and therefore cut back the numbers entering the UK. Remain cant explain how we will cope with an extra 300,000 people a year, potentially ongoing. Leave haven't really detailed how much they will beef up the system and what potential numbers will be after new regulation. For example, Leave say our economy will be stronger out of the EU whereas Remain say we will be stronger within the EU. Neither can actually guarantee this as fact because it will always be dependant or affected by uncontrollable factors.

I've said before, I'm OUT. As far as the economy is concerned, I don't believe for one second that the EU will stop trading with us or put in place trade barriers/tariffs that will hurt us, they need us to buy their goods, for example, will the boss of BMW want to make his cars more expensive to one of his biggest markets and risk a drop in sales? I think not. As for imigration, I believe we have to cut/slow down the numbers and soon. Our already creaking infrastructure will only creak more unless we do.

thesilentone wrote: Immigration is a Mega-Trend issues that will not go away any time soon.

We are an Island Nation and act like one, we have supported immigration over generations, when it suited us. Everyone is sympathetic to the desperate families fleeing from Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and N/Africa, but at the same time we adopt the NIMBY attitude. This reluctance is compounded when we see reports of those who exploit our system.

But, what of our future, who are we to be. Low incomes and high cost requires borrowing, this suits the elite ruling class, without money we are nothing. Cheap labour helps keep costs down, so business owners like this. Being a member of the EU does little for workers rights (despite all the rhetoric) ask those who work for Sports Direct. What can the Unions do, nothing ! Why, because they say they are not OUR members, so the transient labour force is there to be exploited.

As for democracy, we have a system in the UK that we like (other than those idiots that turn out on Bank Holidays and wreck the joint) we are also in a position that we can change things.

A system "we" like? Nope. You might like it, but don't presume to speak for anyone else.

This debate should really be about economics (which as Northumbrian says includes immigration on a purely practical level) and not much else - the idea of people complaining about unelected people in Brussels telling us what to do is laughable, when we have the Lords. I don't remember getting a say in Karren Brady or Andrew Lloyd-Webber representing us!

But getting something through the Lords isn't remotely like laws handed down by Brussels.......at least stuff can be tweaked and put to them again....once Brussels makes a decision it appears that's it, set in stone....but worst of all the whole set up is too remote am sure even the MEPs would say that ...too remote too big and too corrupt .

Vote out on 23rd

We were talking about this at work yesterday lunch time and all 12 of us in tea room are voting out...

so that's my little survey conducted I will be sending results to the bbc and await e mail back calling me a racist bigot

seesaw50 wrote: But getting something through the Lords isn't remotely like laws handed down by Brussels.......at least stuff can be tweaked and put to them again....once Brussels makes a decision it appears that's it, set in stone....but worst of all the whole set up is too remote am sure even the MEPs would say that ...too remote too big and too corrupt .

Vote out on 23rd

So just to clarify seesaw, you think:

House of Lords and Monarchy - undemocratic but you don't mind
The EU - bloody foreigners!

deeksme wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: But getting something through the Lords isn't remotely like laws handed down by Brussels.......at least stuff can be tweaked and put to them again....once Brussels makes a decision it appears that's it, set in stone....but worst of all the whole set up is too remote am sure even the MEPs would say that ...too remote too big and too corrupt .

Vote out on 23rd

So just to clarify seesaw, you think:

House of Lords and Monarchy - undemocratic but you don't mind
The EU - bloody foreigners!

Now you put it like that I'm definitely out!!!

deeksme wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: But getting something through the Lords isn't remotely like laws handed down by Brussels.......at least stuff can be tweaked and put to them again....once Brussels makes a decision it appears that's it, set in stone....but worst of all the whole set up is too remote am sure even the MEPs would say that ...too remote too big and too corrupt .

Vote out on 23rd

So just to clarify seesaw, you think:

House of Lords and Monarchy - undemocratic but you don't mind
The EU - bloody foreigners!

Bloody foreigners despite us having a voice on ot through our commissioners and MEP's.

And yet we are happy to have an unelected head of state and upper house, the majority of whom are there through the luck of being born into the right family.

DeckchairBlue wrote:

deeksme wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: But getting something through the Lords isn't remotely like laws handed down by Brussels.......at least stuff can be tweaked and put to them again....once Brussels makes a decision it appears that's it, set in stone....but worst of all the whole set up is too remote am sure even the MEPs would say that ...too remote too big and too corrupt .

Vote out on 23rd

So just to clarify seesaw, you think:

House of Lords and Monarchy - undemocratic but you don't mind
The EU - bloody foreigners!

Bloody foreigners despite us having a voice on ot through our commissioners and MEP's.

And yet we are happy to have an unelected head of state and upper house, the majority of whom are there through the luck of being born into the right family.

We may have commisioners and 10% of the MEP's but if the other commissioners and the other 90% of the MEP's don't like what we believe best for the UK, we'll end up with something being imposed on us. Whichever way you try and dress this up, the EU is now far too big. With so many differing attitudes, cultures and religions, One size will never fit all. If you really believe we can effect change from within, I fear you are in for a big disappointment. As I have suggested previously, A victory for leave will probably provoke a raft of concessions and measures designed to placate the UK public but only because they fear two things, 1) they know they will have to all chip in more money to make up the shortfall and 2) they know that our exit could well set off an exodus or even a total disintegration that the many with their fat snouts in the EU trough do not want under any circumstances.

As for our monarchy and House of lords. The monarchy is in many ways a fairly inert issue in my opinion, The Lords is a different issue, I agree it does need reform. Please bear in mind they aren't all hereditary peers, many have been put there by the political parties. It is the double check required for law making and legislating but those in the house should have to justify their existence more than they do now and the numbers should be limited and evenly balanced between the political parties or it's impartiality in in question. Reform of this is possible in time and , in my opinion, likely. Reform of the EU is far less likely and beyond our control.

Yes it's beyond our control alone because maybe the EU is about doing what is best for the common good rather than just viewing ourselves as a lone nation. It's unlikely that we will be the only nation that thinks reforms are needed, so we need to work other EU nations to make those reforms rather than trying to dominate it and wanting it just because it's not UK-centric.

I actually don't want to dominate it. We could never dominate it, the Germans and the French would never allow it. At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, the EU is too big now and what you suggest is for the common good, will never fit all members. All this will do is cause delay after delay in reaching any consensus and cost far too much money, all things the EU is very good at.

Zebby wrote: We were talking about this at work yesterday lunch time and all 12 of us in tea room are voting out...

so that's my little survey conducted I will be sending results to the bbc and await e mail back calling me a racist bigot

Probably what's more important is the fact that two-thirds of MPs are in favour of "Remain" which makes you wonder what they will do if the country votes to "Leave".

If the vote is leave or remain, the result is the voice of the majority and therefore democracy will have taken place. The MP's will have to deal with that.

cousinscotty wrote:

Zebby wrote: We were talking about this at work yesterday lunch time and all 12 of us in tea room are voting out...

so that's my little survey conducted I will be sending results to the bbc and await e mail back calling me a racist bigot

Probably what's more important is the fact that two-thirds of MPs are in favour of "Remain"

and that in it self is a good enough reason to want to leave.

simple question, and a 1 word answer would be sufficient.


OUT

OUT

DeckchairBlue wrote: Yes it's beyond our control alone because maybe the EU is about doing what is best for the common good rather than just viewing ourselves as a lone nation. It's unlikely that we will be the only nation that thinks reforms are needed, so we need to work other EU nations to make those reforms rather than trying to dominate it and wanting it just because it's not UK-centric.

it's beyond our control and all the other 27 states control because the architects of this socialist project are able to coerce or even brainwash some might say, the majority with promises of a wonderful world where its one for all and all for one . Alas...as in any group who co habit there are leaders and followers....the strong leaders thrive the weak do not thrive and need supported and given handouts. So there is no common good , the Strong remain strong and better off and the weak rely on the handouts.


Edit to add : its not only working with other countries to get reforms its getting the bureaucrats to realise their treaties have caused the problems we are seeing.... Europe is on the edge and yet the hierarchy bury their heads in the sand .

Out

Out

Was undecided. After tonight's debate definitely OUT.

Out

I thought the German was quite good tonight.

Why stop at UK out. Surely England out would be better. Cumbria out would be even better. No sorry I meant Cumberland. No wait a minute that would include the jam eaters. No what I really meant was Carlisle out. Hang on a minute that would include Raffles. What I really meant was my house. As long as my house is OK the world is a wonderful place.

Small minded people rule OK?

Grow up and embrace the world.

IN.

Out

OUT

Bruntonpasty wrote: If the vote is leave or remain, the result is the voice of the majority and therefore democracy will have taken place. The MP's will have to deal with that.

I suspect that Parliament will debate the issue and the Government will be despatched to get us a better deal IN Europe. Meanwhile, the electorate will say, "Hang on, we voted to leave - why are you keeping us in?" This may force a General Election which will be fought on a single issue. UKIP will stand in most constituencies and probably get more than the paltry 13 pc they got last time - the other constituencies could be won by Brexit MPs , Boris Johnston, el al. So the UK will leave Europe and sail off into the great unknown (because no-one knows what will happen) with clowns like Johnston and Farage running the country.

Currently, we in the UK are laughing our bits off at the thought of Trump being President of the USA. Maybe the Americans will have the last laugh...

howoldboy wrote: Why stop at UK out. Surely England out would be better. Cumbria out would be even better. No sorry I meant Cumberland. No wait a minute that would include the jam eaters. No what I really meant was Carlisle out. Hang on a minute that would include Raffles. What I really meant was my house. As long as my house is OK the world is a wonderful place.

Small minded people rule OK?

Grow up and embrace the world.

I thought you'd reminded me of something:

3/1 for out looking excellent value.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

howoldboy wrote: Why stop at UK out. Surely England out would be better. Cumbria out would be even better. No sorry I meant Cumberland. No wait a minute that would include the jam eaters. No what I really meant was Carlisle out. Hang on a minute that would include Raffles. What I really meant was my house. As long as my house is OK the world is a wonderful place.

Small minded people rule OK?

Grow up and embrace the world.

freedom for Stanwix, if it's good enough for that pro leave gentleman Lord Cumberland then it's good enough for me. take that you remain scum Bonnie prince Islam.

OUT

Had a quick look at the odds of it all again. 3/10 to remain 11/4 to leave.

Boris Johnson is firm favourite to be next PM.