The Brexit Thread

Stamford and do you realise that if all the Syrians and other "refugees" now in Germany and other European countries can take out citizenship of those countries in 3 years time ,and then guess what? Come freely to the UK.


Vote Leave on June 23rd.

seesaw50 wrote: Stamford and do you realise that if all the Syrians and other "refugees" now in Germany and other European countries can take out citizenship of those countries in 3 years time ,and then guess what? Come freely to the UK.


Vote Leave on June 23rd.

Yes. It will only cause greater pressure on our infrastructure something the remain continually ignore. The migration figures released this week are very concerning and it's time to take back control of our borders

We have control of our borders from immigration from outside the EU.
Seems like we are not very good at it, as it accounted for about 50% of the total

Stamfordblue wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: Stamford and do you realise that if all the Syrians and other "refugees" now in Germany and other European countries can take out citizenship of those countries in 3 years time ,and then guess what? Come freely to the UK.


Vote Leave on June 23rd.

Yes. It will only cause greater pressure on our infrastructure something the remain continually ignore. The migration figures released this week are very concerning and it's time to take back control of our borders

Why would they want to leave Germany with its booming economy to move here ?

For that matter if people can move freely why haven't we all moved abroad ? Just because people have the freedom to do something doesn't mean they will

mainly because the vast majority of Brits ability of conversing in a foreign language is pretty much repeating it slowly in English. Some do go abroad but it is only Germany that has an economic record of note. The rest of the EU counties are being subsidised by us. Unless you're retiring to somewhere hot it would be pointless for most to move abroad, we would be at the back of the queue for job appointments because each question asked at an interview would be met with a blank look.

The only comparison I can offer is, imagine the EU is like a UK union leader. Fat, Lazy and Useless..........Oh and corrupt !!

My ONLY concern about leaving is, although the EU is corrupt, it is maybe lesser corrupted than the alternatives.

Forget the political bullsh.t, vote with your heart.

Didnt have all this crap when we had an Empire

We let the workers come when we needed them and sent them back when we didnt.

In my opinion until the way British Governments are elected nothing will change so it doesnt really matter whether were in or not. If the last election had been run in the same way as the Welsh and Scottish elections the Torys would have not much more than a third of the seats that they have now and would in all probrability be virtually impotent.

But i.ll tell you what if the Leave vote wins therell be a good few European leaders saying shit what the [censored] have we done and if it goes ok for us in the first couple of years i would suggest there will be a good few others announcing leave referendums.

The rest of the EU don't want us to leave. As a net contributor, one of about 7 or 8 out of the 28, the net recipients and other contributors know there would need to be cuts made or the other contributors will have to make up any shortfall in contributions. They also fear that it would bring about a collapse of the whole thing. If radical changes could be made by staying in, I would vote in but, this will never happen and thus I am out!

But i.ll tell you what if the Leave vote wins therell be a good few European leaders saying shit what the [censored] have we done and if it goes ok for us in the first couple of years i would suggest there will be a good few others announcing leave referendums.

absolutely correct. the whole thing will come crashing down within 5 years.

not before time too.

Something that's never mentioned a lot but we never joined EEC until 1975. So what did we do before then what was it like ,i was to young then to remember about the economy and trade deals. But i am sure some of the older forum members will have been able to remember and give there views.

CumbrianView wrote: Something that's never mentioned a lot but we never joined EEC until 1975. So what did we do before then what was it like ,i was to young then to remember about the economy and trade deals. But i am sure some of the older forum members will have been able to remember and give there views.

well cumbrian the dye was cast before 1975 when we went decimal in 1972 and prices doubled more or less over night.then Ted Heath started sucking up to Europe....before that.everybody left school and got a job or apprenticeship, when they were proper apprenticeships, for 5 years working with proper tradesmen... However ,once Margaret Thatcher got in that plunged the country into all kinds of internal strife .....strikes galore ,not a good time. Heavy industry was decimated and the old trades started to disappear.....need I go on . in short we stopped making stuff and Europe started dictating what we could and couldn't do......remember the cod war ,so called ..the fishing iindustry almost disappeared as well and has never really recovered thanks to EU regulations on how much the boats can land....in short all the UK s traditional ways of sustaining its people suffered thanks to political decisions made to keep in with the bloody EU.

seesaw50 wrote:

CumbrianView wrote: Something that's never mentioned a lot but we never joined EEC until 1975. So what did we do before then what was it like ,i was to young then to remember about the economy and trade deals. But i am sure some of the older forum members will have been able to remember and give there views.

well cumbrian the dye was cast before 1975 when we went decimal in 1972 and prices doubled more or less over night.then Ted Heath started sucking up to Europe....before that.everybody left school and got a job or apprenticeship, when they were proper apprenticeships, for 5 years working with proper tradesmen... However ,once Margaret Thatcher got in that plunged the country into all kinds of internal strife .....strikes galore ,not a good time. Heavy industry was decimated and the old trades started to disappear.....need I go on . in short we stopped making stuff and Europe started dictating what we could and couldn't do......remember the cod war ,so called ..the fishing iindustry almost disappeared as well and has never really recovered thanks to EU regulations on how much the boats can land....in short all the UK s traditional ways of sustaining its people suffered thanks to political decisions made to keep in with the bloody EU.

After reading this crap I now understand why half of the Paddock think Gary Dicker is God. Congratulations seesaw.. you made me laugh.

So how old ARE you boy? No laughing matter , just saying how it was , you can't argue with those facts..ask yer grandad!

seesaw50 wrote: So how old ARE you boy? No laughing matter , just saying how it was , you can't argue with those facts..ask yet grandad!

Only 60 seesaw. Don't forget Britain was in a huge mess before Thatcher and it was in a bigger mess afterwards. Europe has improved things for the majority.

howoldboy wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: So how old ARE you boy? No laughing matter , just saying how it was , you can't argue with those facts..ask yet grandad!

. Europe has improved things for the majority.

Maybe youd like to give us some examples because i cant think of any. And by that i mean provable facts not the sort of scaremonger crap that the Leave campaign have been putting out as to what may or may not happen.

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

howoldboy wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: So how old ARE you boy? No laughing matter , just saying how it was , you can't argue with those facts..ask yet grandad!

. Europe has improved things for the majority.

Maybe youd like to give us some examples because i cant think of any. And by that i mean provable facts not the sort of scaremonger crap that the Leave campaign have been putting out as to what may or may not happen.

Lower unemployment.
Less World wars.
Greater opportunities (jobs available beyond Lancashire).
Freedom of movement (without having to fire bullets).
Greater choice of food/beers.

howoldboy wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

howoldboy wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: So how old ARE you boy? No laughing matter , just saying how it was , you can't argue with those facts..ask yet grandad!

. Europe has improved things for the majority.

Maybe youd like to give us some examples because i cant think of any. And by that i mean provable facts not the sort of scaremonger crap that the Leave campaign have been putting out as to what may or may not happen.

Lower unemployment.
Less World wars.
Greater opportunities (jobs available beyond Lancashire).
Freedom of movement (without having to fire bullets).
Greater choice of food/beers.

I love a nice Chinese or Indian takeaway. Some Mexican stuffs OK as well.

seesaw50 wrote:

CumbrianView wrote: Something that's never mentioned a lot but we never joined EEC until 1975. So what did we do before then what was it like ,i was to young then to remember about the economy and trade deals. But i am sure some of the older forum members will have been able to remember and give there views.

well cumbrian the dye was cast before 1975 when we went decimal in 1972 and prices doubled more or less over night.then Ted Heath started sucking up to Europe....before that.everybody left school and got a job or apprenticeship, when they were proper apprenticeships, for 5 years working with proper tradesmen... However ,once Margaret Thatcher got in that plunged the country into all kinds of internal strife .....strikes galore ,not a good time. Heavy industry was decimated and the old trades started to disappear.....need I go on . in short we stopped making stuff and Europe started dictating what we could and couldn't do......remember the cod war ,so called ..the fishing iindustry almost disappeared as well and has never really recovered thanks to EU regulations on how much the boats can land....in short all the UK s traditional ways of sustaining its people suffered thanks to political decisions made to keep in with the bloody EU.

[censored] EU travelling back in time 200 years to make america have a decimalised currency which gave us the idea to eventually do it :-&

howoldboy wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

howoldboy wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: So how old ARE you boy? No laughing matter , just saying how it was , you can't argue with those facts..ask yet grandad!

. Europe has improved things for the majority.

Maybe youd like to give us some examples because i cant think of any. And by that i mean provable facts not the sort of scaremonger crap that the Leave campaign have been putting out as to what may or may not happen.

Lower unemployment.
Less World wars.
Greater opportunities (jobs available beyond Lancashire).
Freedom of movement (without having to fire bullets).
Greater choice of food/beers.

.......can't disagree with that but :
Lower unemployment = more jobs in coffee shops and hotels
Less World Wars = no World Wars but more regionalized wars
Greater opportunities = if you really want to up sticks and move from Lancashire perhaps!
Freedom of movement= hundreds of thousands of Jonny foreigners heading here competing for those jobs, and in a lot of cases not even competing just being shipped in by agencies, no interview or anything! Taking vital housing, which is in short supply...and school places causing untold pressure on teachers and our own kids education.
Greater choice of food/beers = greater choice of food and beers!

I've never understood why the US despite having a decimal currency still clings to its old-fashioned pounds and gallons. But then I've never understood a lot of things about America.

seesaw50 wrote:

howoldboy wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

howoldboy wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: So how old ARE you boy? No laughing matter , just saying how it was , you can't argue with those facts..ask yet grandad!

. Europe has improved things for the majority.

Maybe youd like to give us some examples because i cant think of any. And by that i mean provable facts not the sort of scaremonger crap that the Leave campaign have been putting out as to what may or may not happen.

Lower unemployment.
Less World wars.
Greater opportunities (jobs available beyond Lancashire).
Freedom of movement (without having to fire bullets).
Greater choice of food/beers.

.......can't disagree with that but :

Less World Wars = no World Wars but more regionalized wars

Since WW2 although there has been wars in Europe there hasn't been a war between any members of the EU.

I can't believe anyone seriously thinks the EU means a better choice of food and beers. It's a global economy if a particular food or drink is good it'll get to the global marketplace. I'm sure a exit vote isn't gonna mean all the pubs and clubs of Carlisle are gonna stop selling foreign ales.

Dancingbear wrote: I can't believe anyone seriously thinks the EU means a better choice of food and beers. It's a global economy if a particular food or drink is good it'll get to the global marketplace. I'm sure a exit vote isn't gonna mean all the pubs and clubs of Carlisle are gonna stop selling foreign ales.

Exactly DB and i.m still waiting for an answer from No 10 as to why Cameron thinks holidays in the EU will become 25% more expensive if we leave as he tried to claim without anything to back it up last week.

The word over the weekend is that the leave group have paid a lot of money to commission a report from some serious academics that will show that if as of Jan 1st 2018 we sent no more money to Brussels and they sent no more back to us we could carry on paying the farm and environmental subsidies and others such as fisheries etc in fact just about everything the EU give us money back for including the special projects [like transport etc ] that they fund and still have more than 50$ of the money left so by the time you stop paying for the loony things that EU insist that we do and the cost of accommodating immigrants and all the rest of the things the loony things the EU make us do like enforcing enforcing the straightness of cucumbers and the number of bananas in a bunch etc [joke] we should be down to about 25%.

I believe theyre planning to release it about 7 days before the referendum date.

And the really good news is that if we vote leave Cameron and his cronies wont be around to blow it.

No instead we would have Boris and his cronies. I'm not sure which is worth to be honest.

Had a conversation about cars the other day where the person I was talking too was papping at the thought of his next German car being more costly if we leave. I asked him to think on this. If you were the boss of a German car manufacturer who sold a large quantity of cars to customers in the UK,if the UK left the EU, why would you make those cars more expensive for your UK customers to buy? Or why would your government/the EU make your products less attractive to one of your biggest markets? It would be utter stupidity!

Edited to add, The money we contribute into the EU coffers that they then drip feed back Is OUR OWN MONEY. If we leave, we have that money plus the portion of it we don't get back to use on our own country. We really don't need to pay the "MEMBERSHIP FEES" to this club. We will need a government that won't waste this money and that may be a harder problem to solve, A coalition of some sort may be the safest for the period after our exit of the EU.

Bruntonpasty wrote: The rest of the EU don't want us to leave. As a net contributor, one of about 7 or 8 out of the 28, the net recipients and other contributors know there would need to be cuts made or the other contributors will have to make up any shortfall in contributions. They also fear that it would bring about a collapse of the whole thing. If radical changes could be made by staying in, I would vote in but, this will never happen and thus I am out!

.....exactly ,they treat us with contempt apparently at the Commission and European Parliment ( god knows what the difference is), "whinging Brits" as I've said before...but there'll be one unholy mess if we do leave which might make for a bloody reality check by those wearing the blinkers at the top.

Vote Leave on June 23rd.

CumbrianView wrote: Something that's never mentioned a lot but we never joined EEC until 1975. So what did we do before then what was it like ,i was to young then to remember about the economy and trade deals. But i am sure some of the older forum members will have been able to remember and give there views.

Oh and CU played in International football tournaments ...see Roma thread..where Roma = famous Italian football club and not some Big Issue seller

DeckchairBlue wrote: No instead we would have Boris and his cronies. I'm not sure which is worth to be honest.

Do you really think they are that stupid as if they do we.ll have two parties with leaders which make their parties virtually unelectable and i see a lot of openings for high profile independent candidates which would be the best result for this country in many years.

seesaw50 wrote:

CumbrianView wrote: Something that's never mentioned a lot but we never joined EEC until 1975. So what did we do before then what was it like ,i was to young then to remember about the economy and trade deals. But i am sure some of the older forum members will have been able to remember and give there views.

Oh and CU played in International football tournaments ...see Roma thread..where Roma = famous Italian football club and not some Big Issue seller

But voting out isn't going to suddenly transport us 40 years into the past, rebuild our heavy industry, take all the jobs back we've lost to China, cancel all of the laws and regulations and make Britain great again.

The people that constantly harp on about what it was like before we joined need to realise that those days are gone and not coming back.

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

DeckchairBlue wrote: No instead we would have Boris and his cronies. I'm not sure which is worth to be honest.

Do you really think they are that stupid as if they do we.ll have two parties with leaders which make their parties virtually unelectable and i see a lot of openings for high profile independent candidates which would be the best result for this country in many years.

Yes I do think that. However I don't see Corbyn as unelectable.

We have the ability to vote a govt in or out periodically, we don't get that sort of opportunity with the Eu.

DeckchairBlue wrote:

seesaw50 wrote:

CumbrianView wrote: Something that's never mentioned a lot but we never joined EEC until 1975. So what did we do before then what was it like ,i was to young then to remember about the economy and trade deals. But i am sure some of the older forum members will have been able to remember and give there views.

Oh and CU played in International football tournaments ...see Roma thread..where Roma = famous Italian football club and not some Big Issue seller[/quote

But voting out isn't going to suddenly transport us 40 years into the past, rebuild our heavy industry, take all the jobs back we've lost to China, cancel all of the laws and regulations and make Britain great again.

The people that constantly harp on about what it was like before we joined need to realise that those days are gone and not coming back.

......
No not suggesting we would return to pre 1975 at all...Cumbrianview asked what it was like then, that was my take on how it was. We can build on the changes that have happened over that time without the noose that is the EU round the Country's neck and not being able to exert any real influence....if we are such a key player in this game of Monopoly why AREN'T we able to get the rest to change tack.....funny that.
I'd go do far as to liken our position to CU's owners position regarding new investment ...they want the money but still want to rule the roost.

The Roma bit was a joke.....maybe!

Vote Leave on June 23rd

DeckchairBlue wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

DeckchairBlue wrote: No instead we would have Boris and his cronies. I'm not sure which is worth to be honest.

Do you really think they are that stupid as if they do we.ll have two parties with leaders which make their parties virtually unelectable and i see a lot of openings for high profile independent candidates which would be the best result for this country in many years.

Yes I do think that. However I don't see Corbyn as unelectable.

Unless the election comes very soon after a NO vote i.d be pretty certain Corbyn wont even be leading the Labour party come the next election and if by any chance he was his candidates wouldnt even beat the Independent Labour candidates [ otherwise known as the deposed standing MP.s whove been replaced by the Loony leftie candidates ] never mind anyone else

But a chunk of 80 independent Labour MP.s in Parliament led by say Andy Burnham would be the best thing to happen to British Politics in a long time as neither of the main parties could govern without them

In terms of the polls/surveys/questionnaires have they any idea who is leading or which way this is going to go.?
It is such a leap into the unknown. The leaders on both sides are so detestable too.

I think you have to ignore the personalities heading up each side and just look at the issue in front. At the end of the day the personalities may not have as much to do with things as they think they will whichever way it goes. Cameron is gone at the next election if not before depending on the outcome and Boris is dead in the water for sure if we remain and probably unelectable if we leave.

Not sure about polls but the odds at 2/9 for us to stay and 4/1 for us to leave.

Seesaw - so your problem appears to be that we aren't able to dominate it, if it was a case of whoever pays in most decides the direction it goes in it would become run by a small group of powerful countries and would serve the needs of the few.

Pasty- I don't think you can ignore the personalities. It only seems to be the Leave supporters who want the personalities ignored. Mainly in my view because those aligning themselves with the Leave campaign appear to be vile human beings.

Deckchair - your problem seems to be you`ve been out on the deckchair too long - too much sun!

No we can`t dominate it you are correct coz there are 27 other countries who they have to vote stuff through......there are only 2 countries who dominate it the rest go along with them and wait for their handouts/bailouts.

As I say why are we gonna be such a miss when we can`t influence anything....the EU wants our Billions but not any reform ideas the government might have.
No not suggesting we would return to pre 1975 at all...Cumbrianview asked what it was like then, that was my take on how it was. We can build on the changes that have happened over that time without the noose that is the EU round the Country's neck and not being able to exert any real influence....if we are such a key player in this game of Monopoly why AREN'T we able to get the rest to change tack.....funny that.
I'd go so far as to liken our position to CU's owners position regarding new investment ...they want the money but still want to rule the roost.

The Roma bit was a joke.....maybe!

Vote Leave on June 23rd

DeckchairBlue wrote: Not sure about polls but the odds at 2/9 for us to stay and 4/1 for us to leave.

Seesaw - so your problem appears to be that we aren't able to dominate it, if it was a case of whoever pays in most decides the direction it goes in it would become run by a small group of powerful countries and would serve the needs of the few.

Pasty- I don't think you can ignore the personalities. It only seems to be the Leave supporters who want the personalities ignored. Mainly in my view because those aligning themselves with the Leave campaign appear to be vile human beings.

But thats the whole point we should be dominating it and having the rest of them singing along to out tune and Merkel should be reminded that the tune is

Two World Wars One World Cup Doo Dah Doo Dah 3-nil 3 nil Do Dah Do Dah Day

But unfortunately no government in the last 40 years has had the balls to say this is what we want this is what we.ll do/not do if you dont give us it starting by picking on a few of their pet things like closing the borders and not letting a single Pole or Rumanian in and you.ll have em round the table in 10 mins in fear of what weve started spreading to other less happy countries and their gravy trains disappearing down the urinals.

But as i said No British government has been strong enough and they know it look at the crap fob off they gave Cameron and instead of coming back with absolutely nothing and his tail between his legs why didnt he just say come on Mrs Krauty lets be having you or my government with be joining the Leave side But no hes such a spineless [censored] [ unless hes picking on the people who cant fight back like the Disabled the Homeless and the Unemployed ] that he just rolled over and called the referendum so he can blame the British People when/if it all goes wrong and concentrate on maximising the value of his personal get out .

The Referendum was on the cards anyway NS....it was part of the Tory Manifesto, so regardless of the outcome of a new deal with the EU on Benefits etc we would have the Ref. Cameron hoped by getting a positive outcome from his plan that would be enough to ensure we voted Remain in the Ref.....alas it failed and he got virtually nothing that would make a difference and appease the public and the Press and commentators were quick to rubbish it.

What we need is a load more people smugglers getting caught in the next couple of weeks.

DeckchairBlue wrote: Not sure about polls but the odds at 2/9 for us to stay and 4/1 for us to leave.

Seesaw - so your problem appears to be that we aren't able to dominate it, if it was a case of whoever pays in most decides the direction it goes in it would become run by a small group of powerful countries and would serve the needs of the few.

Pasty- I don't think you can ignore the personalities. It only seems to be the Leave supporters who want the personalities ignored. Mainly in my view because those aligning themselves with the Leave campaign appear to be vile human beings.

I think you choose to ignore the point I'm making. Ultimately this referendum is about remaining in or leaving the EU. It is not about Dodgy Dave, Boris or Nigel, They will come or go at our decision at the ballot box every 4 or 5 years. Cameron will be gone shortly anyhow, one way or the other. I voted Tory last time, would I vote for Boris? I don't think so. Best thing the Tories could do to keep power would be install David Davies as leader. Where Labour go I'm not sure, Jeremy has been very quiet on the whole regarding the Referendum, I know he'is campaigning to leave but I suspect it's through gritted teeth.

DeckchairBlue wrote:

seesaw50 wrote:

howoldboy wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

howoldboy wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: So how old ARE you boy? No laughing matter , just saying how it was , you can't argue with those facts..ask yet grandad!

. Europe has improved things for the majority.

Maybe youd like to give us some examples because i cant think of any. And by that i mean provable facts not the sort of scaremonger crap that the Leave campaign have been putting out as to what may or may not happen.

Lower unemployment.
Less World wars.
Greater opportunities (jobs available beyond Lancashire).
Freedom of movement (without having to fire bullets).
Greater choice of food/beers.

.......can't disagree with that but :

Less World Wars = no World Wars but more regionalized wars

Since WW2 although there has been wars in Europe there hasn't been a war between any members of the EU.

This is by far the stupidest argument on either side... the notion that the EU has somehow kept the region out of war.... that is scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's purely coincidental that there has been no global war since the nuclear deterrent made it suicide for anybody to attempt a full scale attack. The EU did sit by and do absolutely nothing when there was genocide taking place on it's borders in the Balkans though... well actually they had many meetings about it in 5 star hotels on full expenses over a period of a couple of years to decide to do absolutely nothing.

Less than 4 weeks to go until a referendum which holds the potential to levy huge influence over our children's future, and still people are willing to vote for something that has not been explained.

The leave campaign has not come close to providing us with any clue as to how the country will fare upon an 'out' vote.

No explanation of how we would handle the disintegration process. No hint at the demands we would make of the EU during the interim period. No information as to how our relationship with the remaining EU nations would be. They have been unable to produce anything suggesting our international relations would improve, though they have cried 'foul play' when information to the contrary has come forth.


In fact, short of jingoistic sabre rattling and appeals to a Victorian sense of imperial grandeur, they have produced nothing other than a Trumpesque appeal to 'Make Britain Great Again', as noted by another poster on this thread.

Let's face it, the biggest gripe the working man has with the EU is immigration. Despite all the figures pointing to positive net contributions from EU immigrants, people just can't stand to see Polish shops springing up here and there. Folk feel that leaving would slow down immigration, but the fact is that way more immigrants entered this country from outside the EU than from within it last year.

Voting leave is the democratic equivalent of Russian Roulette. There is absolutely no way you can know what you are going to be getting, and that is a shocking basis to make a decision that will affect the children of our children's children far more than it will affect our own future. Things need to change, but a change this big should only be made when the alternative is clear and well thought out. It is not.

Personally, I'm really disappointed in the campaign, on both sides. I was looking forward to an informative debate, instead we have been given spin, petty infighting, and an absolute lack of vision.

The UK debt seems to be getting no press or coverage during this debate, and whether you like Osborne or not, the financial mess the UK was in after the last Government left, required massive borrowing from the IMF.

Are we out of the woods yet ?..I don't think so, I feel we need the EU more than our politicians would have us know.

But, whether we do or not, I'm voting OUT..

No more queues at passport control, we can take the ' Non-EU residents' channel

Bruntonpasty wrote:

DeckchairBlue wrote: Not sure about polls but the odds at 2/9 for us to stay and 4/1 for us to leave.

Seesaw - so your problem appears to be that we aren't able to dominate it, if it was a case of whoever pays in most decides the direction it goes in it would become run by a small group of powerful countries and would serve the needs of the few.

Pasty- I don't think you can ignore the personalities. It only seems to be the Leave supporters who want the personalities ignored. Mainly in my view because those aligning themselves with the Leave campaign appear to be vile human beings.

I think you choose to ignore the point I'm making. Ultimately this referendum is about remaining in or leaving the EU. It is not about Dodgy Dave, Boris or Nigel, They will come or go at our decision at the ballot box every 4 or 5 years. Cameron will be gone shortly anyhow, one way or the other. I voted Tory last time, would I vote for Boris? I don't think so. Best thing the Tories could do to keep power would be install David Davies as leader. Where Labour go I'm not sure, Jeremy has been very quiet on the whole regarding the Referendum, I know he'is campaigning to leave but I suspect it's through gritted teeth.

Surely Jeremy's campaigning to stay iin ..through gritted teeth...typo?? Agree David Davies is a good shout for leader of the Torys and PM

Kangshung wrote: Less than 4 weeks to go until a referendum which holds the potential to levy huge influence over our children's future, and still people are willing to vote for something that has not been explained.

The leave campaign has not come close to providing us with any clue as to how the country will fare upon an 'out' vote.

No explanation of how we would handle the disintegration process. No hint at the demands we would make of the EU during the interim period. No information as to how our relationship with the remaining EU nations would be. They have been unable to produce anything suggesting our international relations would improve, though they have cried 'foul play' when information to the contrary has come forth.


In fact, short of jingoistic sabre rattling and appeals to a Victorian sense of imperial grandeur, they have produced nothing other than a Trumpesque appeal to 'Make Britain Great Again', as noted by another poster on this thread.

Let's face it, the biggest gripe the working man has with the EU is immigration. Despite all the figures pointing to positive net contributions from EU immigrants, people just can't stand to see Polish shops springing up here and there. Folk feel that leaving would slow down immigration, but the fact is that way more immigrants entered this country from outside the EU than from within it last year.

Voting leave is the democratic equivalent of Russian Roulette. There is absolutely no way you can know what you are going to be getting, and that is a shocking basis to make a decision that will affect the children of our children's children far more than it will affect our own future. Things need to change, but a change this big should only be made when the alternative is clear and well thought out. It is not.

Personally, I'm really disappointed in the campaign, on both sides. I was looking forward to an informative debate, instead we have been given spin, petty infighting, and an absolute lack of vision.

To balance the argument you could also argue that the "remain" campaign haven't come close to providing answers on a number of key questions that will determine how we will fare if we stay in.

- If the ONS stats on population increase do come true and we hit 80 million population.... where will the additional millions of people live? What are their plans? are we building new towns? How many hospitals and schools would need to be built to accommodate these millions? How will it impact on our transport infrastructure? This isn't about jingoistic sabre rattling... suggesting it is is just a lazy old stereotype... these are real practical concerns that will need to be addressed if we stay in because a large increase in population over the next couple of decades is a very real possibility if you can't control immigration, which you absolutely can't from within the EU.
- What are the plans for setting up free trade agreements with the fastest growing regions of the world.... the EU have proved to be utterly inept at setting these free trade agreements up so far. The obvious answer would be to negotiate the right to set up our own deals from within the EU... but I doubt we will be allowed to do that. we will have to continue paying duties if we want to trade with China, India and South America... despite the fact that minnows like Iceland & Switzerland don't.
- What is the plan for our armed services once the EU army is set up? How would that impact on us if there was another Falkland's conflict and the EU didn't support armed action? Just an example but it is possible.
- What is the position on future political integration with the rest of the EU, which is the ultimate aim of the EU as they previously stated?
- What happens in the event of a bail-out for Italy and Spain? Will we have to pay anything towards that? Again a very real possibility.

My view is that future integration of EU is totally inevitable and this is our last chance to prevent ourselves from joining that process. I have a horrible feeling the scaremongering will create a real fear of change and we will vote to remain in the EU. It will be a terrible day for our children and grandchildren if we are tied to the EU for the foreseeable future. Maybe they will like living in the United States of Europe though, who knows.

I'm fully in agreement that the campaigning by both sides has been an utter disgrace and says a lot about politicians in general. There has been blatant lying by both campaign's and the public has been deliberately misled with some of the "facts" and "figures" used by both sides. On a domestic front the big losers will be the Conservatives who have behaved like a bunch of children in this campaign.... it's just lucky that Corbyn is unelectable and they effectively have a free pass at the next election or I think they may be punished by the electorate for their behaviour in this campaign. I can actually see a vote of no-confidence coming for Cameron and the Conservatives lurching much more towards anti-Europe before the next election as a result.

Kangshung wrote: - If the ONS stats on population increase do come true and we hit 80 million population.... where will the additional millions of people live? What are their plans? are we building new towns? How many hospitals and schools would need to be built to accommodate these millions? How will it impact on our transport infrastructure? This isn't about jingoistic sabre rattling... suggesting it is is just a lazy old stereotype... these are real practical concerns that will need to be addressed if we stay in because a large increase in population over the next couple of decades is a very real possibility if you can't control immigration, which you absolutely can't from within the EU.

It's proven that migrants actually benefit the country by being here - migrants tend to be young, working and contributing to the system. There's a net surplus from their being here. The fact that we, as a country, do not spend that money on infrastructure is a problem of our government not of migrants.

There's a lot of positives to remaining in the EU and yet, despite them all, i'm voting out.

As has already been said, the EU has proven incompetent at negotiating trade agreements. It shouldn't be a surprise when there are 28 competing interests. Far better to go our own way and negotiate what's in our interests and not the interests of Luxembourg.

The fact that Strasbourg even exists is enough of a reason to leave the EU. For four days every month, all of Brussels pack their bags and decamps to Strasbourg. It costs 200 million euro's a year. The fact that there are plenty of MEPs trying to scrap Strasbourg says it all. The problem is, a lot of that 200 million is spent in the French town of Strasbourg and the French have a veto so the EU goes on pissing that 200m up against the wall.

It seems to me, the in camp recognise all the problems of the EU but say it's better to be in, trying to change it from inside. No. When the EU had a gun to their head, during the renegotiation, we were offered the square root of [censored] all in terms of concessions. If we were to stay, does anybody think we'd honestly gain further concessions? No, if we stay, we have to take it warts and all.

There's to many concessions, I want deals that benefit the UK, not to benefit Greece or Bulgaria at the expense of my country.

I'm voting out.

Armo wrote:

Kangshung wrote: - If the ONS stats on population increase do come true and we hit 80 million population.... where will the additional millions of people live? What are their plans? are we building new towns? How many hospitals and schools would need to be built to accommodate these millions? How will it impact on our transport infrastructure? This isn't about jingoistic sabre rattling... suggesting it is is just a lazy old stereotype... these are real practical concerns that will need to be addressed if we stay in because a large increase in population over the next couple of decades is a very real possibility if you can't control immigration, which you absolutely can't from within the EU.

It's proven that migrants actually benefit the country by being here - migrants tend to be young, working and contributing to the system. There's a net surplus from their being here. The fact that we, as a country, do not spend that money on infrastructure is a problem of our government not of migrants.

There's a lot of positives to remaining in the EU and yet, despite them all, i'm voting out.

As has already been said, the EU has proven incompetent at negotiating trade agreements. It shouldn't be a surprise when there are 28 competing interests. Far better to go our own way and negotiate what's in our interests and not the interests of Luxembourg.

The fact that Strasbourg even exists is enough of a reason to leave the EU. For four days every month, all of Brussels pack their bags and decamps to Strasbourg. It costs 200 million euro's a year. The fact that there are plenty of MEPs trying to scrap Strasbourg says it all. The problem is, a lot of that 200 million is spent in the French town of Strasbourg and the French have a veto so the EU goes on pissing that 200m up against the wall.

It seems to me, the in camp recognise all the problems of the EU but say it's better to be in, trying to change it from inside. No. When the EU had a gun to their head, during the renegotiation, we were offered the square root of [censored] all in terms of concessions. If we were to stay, does anybody think we'd honestly gain further concessions? No, if we stay, we have to take it warts and all.

There's to many concessions, I want deals that benefit the UK, not to benefit Greece or Bulgaria at the expense of my country.

I'm voting out.

Well in that case they wont mind paying a 10k deposit when they come in will they repayable to them once theyve paid 10k in tax and national insurance less of course the cost of any NHS Services theyve used in that time.

Armo wrote:

Kangshung wrote: - If the ONS stats on population increase do come true and we hit 80 million population.... where will the additional millions of people live? What are their plans? are we building new towns? How many hospitals and schools would need to be built to accommodate these millions? How will it impact on our transport infrastructure? This isn't about jingoistic sabre rattling... suggesting it is is just a lazy old stereotype... these are real practical concerns that will need to be addressed if we stay in because a large increase in population over the next couple of decades is a very real possibility if you can't control immigration, which you absolutely can't from within the EU.

It's proven that migrants actually benefit the country by being here - migrants tend to be young, working and contributing to the system. There's a net surplus from their being here. The fact that we, as a country, do not spend that money on infrastructure is a problem of our government not of migrants.

.

Not quite.... it's a proven fact that currently migrants have contributed to a net surplus to date... but that is because we have largely been able to accommodate them within existing infrastructure so far. There haven't been any massive infrastructure costs yet but the system is already creaking and we can't cope with many more before we have to address the issues, which will add hugely to costs and therefore mean that they are no longer a net benefit. We can't cope with another 10m+ people over the next couple of decades without embarking on huge infrastructure projects in the near future... how we will pay for these additional hospitals, schools and new towns is anybodies guess though... one thing is for sure the tax receipts of the additional immigrants won't cover the cost.

The rest of your post is bang on. This really is a choice between leaving or going into the EU totally... there won't be any half measures or opt outs that will be worth the paper they are written on if we vote to stay in.... to be honest half in and half out like we currently are is the worst of all positions.