The Brexit Thread

IN

Out from me but there's not a hope in hell of a leave vote unfortunately.

Out

Out

Out.

Seems to be a lot of small 'minded people' on this thread how old boy. What part of one word, in or out didn't you understand? Stop trying to claim the moral high ground. Grow up? You grow up. Idiot.

OUT

OUT

howoldboy wrote: Why stop at UK out. Surely England out would be better. Cumbria out would be even better. No sorry I meant Cumberland. No wait a minute that would include the jam eaters. No what I really meant was Carlisle out. Hang on a minute that would include Raffles. What I really meant was my house. As long as my house is OK the world is a wonderful place.

Small minded people rule OK?

Grow up and embrace the world.

It is actually you that is being small minded by assuming everyone who votes out is small minded....

I want to embrace the world.... I want to trade with the world.... I want to be able to trade on a free trade basis with huge developing economies like China, India, South America, south East Asia..... unfortunately the small minded, inward looking EU is blocking our attempts to set up trade agreements with these areas.

Free trade market available to EU members = $7 trillion GDP
Free Trade market available to Switzerland = $30+ Trillion GDP
Free Trade market available to Chile = $59 Trillion GDP

Voting leave is a vote to embrace the world.... and crucially it will allow us to trade with the world.

Following on slightly from the In/Out thread, in one word what is the most important issue that has or will make your mind up?

Control.

DeckchairBlue wrote: Had a quick look at the odds of it all again. 3/10 to remain 11/4 to leave.

Boris Johnson is firm favourite to be next PM.

If the remain side win, which I fully expect to be honest then there could easily be a vote of no confidence in Cameron within a few months by euro-sceptic Tories. I would expect an anti-EU Conservative leader shortly after. This is pretty inevitable after the conduct of Cameron and Osborne et al during this referendum.... and is also a requirement if the Conservatives aren't to lose millions of supporters across the UK as a result of the remain campaign. The next election could well be fought on this one issue again... if an anti-European Conservative party win with a clear majority they could claim they have the public mandate to take us out of the EU. I doubt a vote to remain means an end to the out campaign in the longer term.

Out

In

Oot!

Don't worry Eddie Izzard must have lost the In campaign a few thousand votes last with his quite frankly embarrassing performance on question time last night

As Northumbrian eloquently put it the staying in is the small minded option

there is a world of trade markets out there and is Europe really going to shut out its best customer if it leaves

Freedom

Avoiding a future like the sci-fi film Elysium

Antidisestablishmentarianism

Can anyone tell me what exactly we'd export to the likes of China, South East Asia, India etc?

Quality of life.

A chance of a better NHS, less antisocial crime, less escalation in gridlocked roads and cities, less overcrowded schools, less illegals contributing f-all but taking far too much.

Out.

I voted Out in 1975 but they didn't Listen!

I don't think that enough people agree with me this time either. It'll be a big mistake as our lives in this country will be adversely affected year on year, as sure as night follows day.

Out

For me it's the ability to plot your own course, regardless of if it's spending, industry, energy, jobs/welfare or immigration.
Inside the EU we have a bureaucratic and painfully slow system of reform and implementation...outside you have the ability to move and if it turns out it doesn't work you can repeal it reasonably quickly without any interference from 27 others who can block your changes if it doesn't suit them.

The main question the leave campaign seem to be overlooking is very simple:
If this was a vote to join Europe, would you vote to join?
It cuts out all the lies/propaganda being flung by both sides in the referendum campaigns.

loser wrote: Can anyone tell me what exactly we'd export to the likes of China, South East Asia, India etc?

"UK exports of goods to China have more than doubled since 2010. They were worth £14.1 billion in 2014, doubling over the term of the last UK parliament and making China the UK’s sixth largest export market.

The UK is now the second biggest European exporter to China. 35% of our goods exports are cars. One third of our exports to China are services.

Top UK exports to China in 2014:

road vehicles
medicinal and pharmaceutical products
power generating machinery / equipment
metalliferous ores and scrap metal
general industrial machinery, equipment and parts"

That is a brief summary of our exports. Happy with that? Imagine what we could do if we left the EU and followed the mighty Iceland's footsteps and negotiated a free trade deal with them.... imagine how high our exports could be then? The worlds second largest economy and biggest single market and we do not have access to free trade, yet Iceland do. Thanks EU.

I think your right, however I think it will depend on the how much the remain campaign win by (if they win).

If it's a close affair with a decent turnout like the Scottish independence vote then the out campaigners will probably continue as Sturgeon has done. If it's a large defeat they won't be able to claim they represent the views of the people, nor can euro-sceptic MP's claim to be representing their constituants.

With regards to how Cameron and Osborne have acted, I don't think any politician can come out of this with their head held high, although some will try, it's been a race to the bottom and shown the worst of our elected reps.

torbayblue wrote: Quality of life.

A chance of a better NHS, less antisocial crime, less escalation in gridlocked roads and cities, less overcrowded schools, less illegals contributing f-all but taking far too much.

But their very definition 'illegals' can not take anything out of our welfare system.

HuntingHorn wrote: The main question the leave campaign seem to be overlooking is very simple:
If this was a vote to join Europe, would you vote to join?
It cuts out all the lies/propaganda being flung by both sides in the referendum campaigns.

If leave campaign win and we come out we'll be having that referendum in 5-10 years.

Out.

Northumbrian, you should have fronted the out campaign instead of the idiots like Farage who are trying to persuade people to vote leave by making them fear immigration.

DeckchairBlue wrote:

HuntingHorn wrote: The main question the leave campaign seem to be overlooking is very simple:
If this was a vote to join Europe, would you vote to join?
It cuts out all the lies/propaganda being flung by both sides in the referendum campaigns.

If leave campaign win and we come out we'll be having that referendum in 5-10 years.

If we leave there will be no EU to join in 5-10 years. It will have imploded long before then. We will just be the first of a long queue out of the door.

CheadleBlue wrote: Out.

Northumbrian, you should have fronted the out campaign instead of the idiots like Farage who are trying to persuade people to vote leave by making them fear immigration.

Haha. Thanks. The irony was that I was very pro-european a few years back..... but the whole EU project has gone to seed in the last decade. The reality is that it no longer works for any of the major nations in the EU and they are all starting to wake up to that fact.... there is massive discontent with the EU in France, Germany and other member countries too. It's a nice idea in principle but only really works if the member countries are of a fairly similar economic development and ideology.

Out

So they never use fake ID's then to their personal advantage?

No assuming their pals identities?

I rest my case.

This is the bit I don't grasp Northumbrian....
Neither side actually has the feintest clue how it will turn out in the event they "win" the referendum...this is the only fact in the whole thing.
There are so many "facts" and figures being hurled around it's almost impossible to trust anything either side say.

It's a big risk to chose either side, both sides have their pitfalls but I'd rather we make our own decisions on what's best for us.

HuntingHorn wrote: This is the bit I don't grasp Northumbrian....
Neither side actually has the feintest clue how it will turn out in the event they "win" the referendum...this is the only fact in the whole thing.
There are so many "facts" and figures being hurled around it's almost impossible to trust anything either side say.

It's a big risk to chose either side, both sides have their pitfalls but I'd rather we make our own decisions on what's best for us.

Nobody can predict the future but to say neither side has the faintest clue is incorrect.

howoldboy wrote: Why stop at UK out. Surely England out would be better. Cumbria out would be even better. No sorry I meant Cumberland. No wait a minute that would include the jam eaters. No what I really meant was Carlisle out. Hang on a minute that would include Raffles. What I really meant was my house. As long as my house is OK the world is a wonderful place.

Small minded people rule OK?

Grow up and embrace the world.

If only we were allowed! What a silly statement

OUT (in capitals) btw

HuntingHorn wrote: This is the bit I don't grasp Northumbrian....
Neither side actually has the feintest clue how it will turn out in the event they "win" the referendum...this is the only fact in the whole thing.
There are so many "facts" and figures being hurled around it's almost impossible to trust anything either side say.

It's a big risk to chose either side, both sides have their pitfalls but I'd rather we make our own decisions on what's best for us.

That is a pretty fair summary.... I think most reasonable people realise that virtually every "fact" trumpeted by either side isn't actually a fact.... most of the time it's a misrepresentation of the true figures or a dodgy worst case/best case scenario based on some dodgy modelling. You just have to try to cut through the bluster and BS by both sides and look at the bigger issues in general terms... To me it's about economics... we are being prevented from trading with massive markets because the protectionist French veto trade deals that threaten their economy. I don't believe for one moment the EU zone will stop trading with us in the longer term, maybe in the first couple of years but not beyond. If free movement is a fundamental principle of the EU then we need to expect millions more people coming into the country over the next decade... where will the new houses come from, how will we pay for the hundreds of new schools, hospitals, the new roads and rail infrastructure needed to cope? I am voting out because I want control over our economy, immigration policy and legal system.

I have a lot of friends who want to remain as they think things are already going quite well so why change? They are perfectly comfortable with closer integration of EU countries and see no issue with things like a single EU army. It really comes down to what is important to you as an individual. My belief is that the first couple of years after leaving may be a bit rocky whilst the whole separation takes place but we will be in a better position long term to make decisions about the UK in our own interest. I have a horrible feeling that the fear campaign of the remain campaign will push people to opt for the status quo as they see it as the least risky choice. At least the out supporters will have plenty of "told you so" moments over the next few years if we do remain in...

CheadleBlue wrote: Out.

Northumbrian, you should have fronted the out campaign instead of the idiots like Farage who are trying to persuade people to vote leave by making them fear immigration.

If Nigel Farage hadn't brought to the attention of the masses the ways of the undemocratic,money wasting, corrupt entity that is the EU a few years ago I doubt we would be having this referendum.

franksidebottom wrote:

HuntingHorn wrote: This is the bit I don't grasp Northumbrian....
Neither side actually has the feintest clue how it will turn out in the event they "win" the referendum...this is the only fact in the whole thing.
There are so many "facts" and figures being hurled around it's almost impossible to trust anything either side say.

It's a big risk to chose either side, both sides have their pitfalls but I'd rather we make our own decisions on what's best for us.

Nobody can predict the future but to say neither side has the faintest clue is incorrect.

So as you say nobody can predict the future, what makes you so sure that's incorrect?
Contradiction anyone???
Another who seems to mistake opinion for 'fact'?

farage is far from being an idiot to be fair

Out

4 of us in my office, all under 30 (just). 2 in, 2 out.

OUT

Out.

I wouldn't class myself as being beyond sway-able in this, mind.

One thing that most people would agree on I would think is that this whole process has been a bloody shambles, and that our politicians have been nothing short of a disgrace. Nobody trusts what the politicians are feeding us, because they're all contradicting each other but not being able to back each other up.

Someone complained about people asking to be told what the cold hard facts are, citing the fact that the facts are available for anyone who wants to find them, especially online. But there's so much guff online that you have no idea what to believe, so you go back to trusting your instinct on what's going to be best for you.

OUT OUT OUT

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/10...lfgang-schauble-says

Out

It's worth a try, it's not like we can't rejoin if it went tits up(which I doubt it will) I'm sure they won't turn their noses up at the next 10 billion quid.

The thing is you can't provide facts for occurrences in the future which is what it all hinges on. Facts and stats can also be interpreted and presented in different ways according to the quoters beliefs. There was a figure quoted the other night by the In campaign, they said that 65% of big businesses in UK wanted us to stay. The actual truth was that 65% of the big businesses which responded to the question wanted us to stay, however only 40% of those asked bothered to respond. A big difference!

Whenever you watch any politics programme there are numerous figures quoted by all parties which they expect us just to take as the truth as we don't know any better, however in this day and age it's easy just to google their claims and find out the actual truth. A website called fullfacts is very good, it's independent and regularly checks figures, stats and claims from politicians on TV. Quite alarming how many liars frequent the House of Commons!

Where will I be able to get hold of a box of ferrer roche

Its a worry

To the best of my knowledge the EU was set up originally as a "Trading Facility" not as it is now becoming, or even has become a group of unelected beurocrats deciding our future , what we can or cannot do who we should accept into our country. at the end of the day they need us more than we need them. We should get back our status as an independant nation. as you can gather I would like us out of this corrupt system for the sake of my grandchildren and their children and of cxourse yours as well. end of rant Ive had enough of the stupidity coming out of Brussells. I would like my country back

Waltero wrote: To the best of my knowledge the EU was set up originally as a "Trading Facility" not as it is now becoming, or even has become a group of unelected beurocrats deciding our future , what we can or cannot do who we should accept into our country. at the end of the day they need us more than we need them. We should get back our status as an independant nation. as you can gather I would like us out of this corrupt system for the sake of my grandchildren and their children and of cxourse yours as well. end of rant Ive had enough of the stupidity coming out of Brussells. I would like my country back

Do we not elect our MEPs

Also if we do leave can we then campaign to remove the unelected house of lords

Northumbrian wrote:

loser wrote: Can anyone tell me what exactly we'd export to the likes of China, South East Asia, India etc?

"UK exports of goods to China have more than doubled since 2010. They were worth £14.1 billion in 2014, doubling over the term of the last UK parliament and making China the UK’s sixth largest export market.

The UK is now the second biggest European exporter to China. 35% of our goods exports are cars. One third of our exports to China are services.

Top UK exports to China in 2014:

road vehicles
medicinal and pharmaceutical products
power generating machinery / equipment
metalliferous ores and scrap metal
general industrial machinery, equipment and parts"

That is a brief summary of our exports. Happy with that? Imagine what we could do if we left the EU and followed the mighty Iceland's footsteps and negotiated a free trade deal with them.... imagine how high our exports could be then? The worlds second largest economy and biggest single market and we do not have access to free trade, yet Iceland do. Thanks EU.

Yeah thanks. I wasn't having a go, was just curious and you answered my question.

Another question though! If we already export all those good then why do we need to leave the EU to do it? If we already do it?

This is the sort of debate that is needed. I know [censored] all in the grand scheme of things but both sides are only interested in insults, scaremongering, and blatantly over/understated half-truths rather than genuinely informing people. I've tried asking questions to "normal" people who want out, but they just turn out to be halfwits who come up with stupid reasons like "I just like change" or "I'm just voting out because of Cameron trying to scare us". They are hardly legitimate reasons to take such a big risk. You come across far better than that though, you seem to actually know what you want and have solid reasons for it.