The Brexit Thread

Lufbrablue wrote:

Waltero wrote: To the best of my knowledge the EU was set up originally as a "Trading Facility" not as it is now becoming, or even has become a group of unelected beurocrats deciding our future , what we can or cannot do who we should accept into our country. at the end of the day they need us more than we need them. We should get back our status as an independant nation. as you can gather I would like us out of this corrupt system for the sake of my grandchildren and their children and of cxourse yours as well. end of rant Ive had enough of the stupidity coming out of Brussells. I would like my country back

Do we not elect our MEPs

Also if we do leave can we then campaign to remove the unelected house of lords

I'm fairly sure we do elect our MEP's but it's so badly publicised they can be sent to Brussels on less than a 10% turn out!
Getting rid of or at least electing the House of Lords would be the single greatest step Britain could take.

loser wrote:

Northumbrian wrote:

loser wrote: Can anyone tell me what exactly we'd export to the likes of China, South East Asia, India etc?

"UK exports of goods to China have more than doubled since 2010. They were worth £14.1 billion in 2014, doubling over the term of the last UK parliament and making China the UK’s sixth largest export market.

The UK is now the second biggest European exporter to China. 35% of our goods exports are cars. One third of our exports to China are services.

Top UK exports to China in 2014:

road vehicles
medicinal and pharmaceutical products
power generating machinery / equipment
metalliferous ores and scrap metal
general industrial machinery, equipment and parts"

That is a brief summary of our exports. Happy with that? Imagine what we could do if we left the EU and followed the mighty Iceland's footsteps and negotiated a free trade deal with them.... imagine how high our exports could be then? The worlds second largest economy and biggest single market and we do not have access to free trade, yet Iceland do. Thanks EU.

Yeah thanks. I wasn't having a go, was just curious and you answered my question.

Another question though! If we already export all those good then why do we need to leave the EU to do it? If we already do it?

This is the sort of debate that is needed. I know [censored] all in the grand scheme of things but both sides are only interested in insults, scaremongering, and blatantly over/understated half-truths rather than genuinely informing people. I've tried asking questions to "normal" people who want out, but they just turn out to be halfwits who come up with stupid reasons like "I just like change" or "I'm just voting out because of Cameron trying to scare us". They are hardly legitimate reasons to take such a big risk. You come across far better than that though, you seem to actually know what you want and have solid reasons for it.

Because we currently have to pay duties to export to China, which makes your products more expensive.... if we can negotiate free trade with China then our products will be cheaper to the Chinese and therefore more appealing... which should lead to much higher export levels. Basically the EU has a terrible record of negotiating these free trade deals.... they have failed repeatedly to come to an agreement with South American block, South East Asian block, India, China and the USA over many, many years of negotiations. The reason is that there are some EU governments that are protectionist... that is they would rather protect their own market because they fear outside competition... the main culprit is France. They have a veto on any new agreement and are not afraid to use it if they think any deal is a threat to their economy in any way.... because of that we are effectively being prevented from trading with much of the world on a free trade basis. The proof of this is that small countries not in the EU, like Iceland, Switzerland and Chile have successfully negotiated free trade agreements with many regions that the EU hasn't.... meaning that they effectively have a free trade market 6 or 7 times the size of the one we currently have as an EU member. Leaving the EU may mean we lose access to the EU free trade zone... although I seriously doubt that longer term.... but that loss would easily be made up by gaining access to much bigger markets like China and India on a free trade basis. The EU is a backward inward looking organisation that holds us back when it comes to international trade.I'm amazed that this hasn't been highlighted much more by the leave campaign... but they seem to be more focused on BS and fear, like the remain campaign.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/10...lfgang-schauble-says

Well lets hope this Kraut wa*nker is correct because if he is the EU will have imploded within 5 years as its largest companies and the people who own them will go to war on the unelected bueracrats who seem to think they know whats best for those companies.

Bring it on as soon as possible.

OUT

Here is an interesting conundrum.
It is perceived that the majority of people living in Scotland now want to be independent from the UK. It is also said that a large majority wish to remain in the EU.
On that basis, it is considered that a UK wide vote to leave the EU could lead to a second referendum in Scotland with a possible outcome of Scotland becoming independent.
Accordingly, a logical vote by Scottish nationalists in the up coming referendum would be a tactical "LEAVE". This would increase the possibility of the UK voting to leave the EU.
But if this was to be the case, how would the Scottish nationalists justify a new independence referendum, if the majority of voters in Scotland had voted LEAVE?

Cayambe wrote: OUT

Here is an interesting conundrum.
It is perceived that the majority of people living in Scotland now want to be independent from the UK. It is also said that a large majority wish to remain in the EU.
On that basis, it is considered that a UK wide vote to leave the EU could lead to a second referendum in Scotland with a possible outcome of Scotland becoming independent.
Accordingly, a logical vote by Scottish nationalists in the up coming referendum would be a tactical "LEAVE". This would increase the possibility of the UK voting to leave the EU.
But if this was to be the case, how would the Scottish nationalists justify a new independence referendum, if the majority of voters in Scotland had voted LEAVE?

Very interesting that! The wicked witch up there has been a fairly vociferous supporter of Remain and said so during their referendum yet, voting leave could potentially give them what they want.

IN
finally made my mind up the thought of ending up with the lunatic Boris running an already obscene Govt is enough for me.

HuntingHorn wrote:

Lufbrablue wrote:

Waltero wrote: To the best of my knowledge the EU was set up originally as a "Trading Facility" not as it is now becoming, or even has become a group of unelected beurocrats deciding our future , what we can or cannot do who we should accept into our country. at the end of the day they need us more than we need them. We should get back our status as an independant nation. as you can gather I would like us out of this corrupt system for the sake of my grandchildren and their children and of cxourse yours as well. end of rant Ive had enough of the stupidity coming out of Brussells. I would like my country back

Do we not elect our MEPs

Also if we do leave can we then campaign to remove the unelected house of lords

I'm fairly sure we do elect our MEP's but it's so badly publicised they can be sent to Brussels on less than a 10% turn out!
Getting rid of or at least electing the House of Lords would be the single greatest step Britain could take.

What so you can fill it full of more elected Shits like the commons are. ?

A lot of the non hereditary Peers are now starting to do not a bad job but the biggest challenge now is to get rid of those upper class Knobs whos titles get handed down thru the generations and see it as no more than a gentlemans club who pay them £500 a day to attend

Funny thing is Pacirv, I voted tory last time and have done on quite a few occasion, but not always. I'm an out but I would not vote for a tory party fronted by Boris.

Cayambe wrote: OUT

Here is an interesting conundrum.
It is perceived that the majority of people living in Scotland now want to be independent from the UK. It is also said that a large majority wish to remain in the EU.
On that basis, it is considered that a UK wide vote to leave the EU could lead to a second referendum in Scotland with a possible outcome of Scotland becoming independent.
Accordingly, a logical vote by Scottish nationalists in the up coming referendum would be a tactical "LEAVE". This would increase the possibility of the UK voting to leave the EU.
But if this was to be the case, how would the Scottish nationalists justify a new independence referendum, if the majority of voters in Scotland had voted LEAVE?

Only two problems with that

If Scotland were independent tomorrow it would immediately be declared bankrupt with oil at the price that it is.

And it would take them 20 years to be admitted to the EU so for that time they would be treat the same way as the rest of the UK would be.

in

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Cayambe wrote: OUT

Here is an interesting conundrum.
It is perceived that the majority of people living in Scotland now want to be independent from the UK. It is also said that a large majority wish to remain in the EU.
On that basis, it is considered that a UK wide vote to leave the EU could lead to a second referendum in Scotland with a possible outcome of Scotland becoming independent.
Accordingly, a logical vote by Scottish nationalists in the up coming referendum would be a tactical "LEAVE". This would increase the possibility of the UK voting to leave the EU.
But if this was to be the case, how would the Scottish nationalists justify a new independence referendum, if the majority of voters in Scotland had voted LEAVE?

Only two problems with that

If Scotland were independent tomorrow it would immediately be declared bankrupt with oil at the price that it is.

And it would take them 20 years to be admitted to the EU so for that time they would be treat the same way as the rest of the UK would be.

Oh,and the majority of Scots want to stay in UK. Hence the referendum 2 years ago. And the latest polls etc.

OUT.

Prawncrackhead wrote: Out

It's worth a try, it's not like we can't rejoin if it went tits up(which I doubt it will) I'm sure they won't turn their noses up at the next 10 billion quid.

Aye, they'll take the billions if they let us back in when it goes tits up.

They'll also take our sterling and replace it with the euro, and laugh in our faces when we ask for our rebate.

Don't kid yourself. There is no going back, at least not to the same unique status we currently enjoy.

Kangshung wrote:

Prawncrackhead wrote: Out

It's worth a try, it's not like we can't rejoin if it went tits up(which I doubt it will) I'm sure they won't turn their noses up at the next 10 billion quid.

Aye, they'll take the billions if they let us back in when it goes tits up.

They'll also take our sterling and replace it with the euro, and laugh in our faces when we ask for our rebate.

Don't kid yourself. There is no going back, at least not to the same unique status we currently enjoy.

If we do actually leave, I don't think we'll be the only ones, and that would probably end the whole beaureacratic gravy train.

BlueAl wrote: Seems to be a lot of small 'minded people' on this thread how old boy. What part of one word, in or out didn't you understand? Stop trying to claim the moral high ground. Grow up? You grow up. Idiot.

Sorry BlueAl. I must have misunderstood the question . I thought he said "a 1 word answer would be sufficient". I didn't realise what he really meant was that a 1 word answer was compulsory.

Be careful you read the ballot paper carefully on 23 June ...you wouldn't want to vote the wrong way would you?

.

I actually think Leave are getting more coverage.... more walk abouts by reporters on telly seem to be finding a lot of outers....all with the same beef...immigration. Fararge did well on BBC tonight ,Andrew Neal let him get his points across without much butting in I thought.

Vote out on June 23rd

Bruntonpasty wrote:

Kangshung wrote:

Prawncrackhead wrote: Out

It's worth a try, it's not like we can't rejoin if it went tits up(which I doubt it will) I'm sure they won't turn their noses up at the next 10 billion quid.

Aye, they'll take the billions if they let us back in when it goes tits up.

They'll also take our sterling and replace it with the euro, and laugh in our faces when we ask for our rebate.

Don't kid yourself. There is no going back, at least not to the same unique status we currently enjoy.

If we do actually leave, I don't think we'll be the only ones, and that would probably end the whole beaureacratic gravy train.

That depends on how things go during the separation negotiations, as well as the initial period following our official exit.

In my opinion the EU will be aware of the possibility of a domino effect, and will seek to play a tough hand against us in an effort to deter other member states from following our lead.

Of course, it's all speculation, as the leave crowd are still to deliver any vision for our future outside the EU

In my opinion the EU will be aware of the possibility of a domino effect, and will seek to play a tough hand against us in an effort to deter other member states from following our lead.

As Princess Leia may have said "The more you tighten your grip Tarkin (or in this case Merkel) the more star systems (EU States) will slip through your fingers".

seesaw50 wrote: I actually think Leave are getting more coverage.... more walk abouts by reporters on telly seem to be finding a lot of outers....all with the same beef...immigration. Fararge did well on BBC tonight ,Andrew Neal let him get his points across without much butting in I thought.

Vote out on June 23rd

Thought Farage did well on question time as well. Don't think Hilary Benn or Eddie Izzard helped the In campaign much.

Yorkie Blue wrote: In my opinion the EU will be aware of the possibility of a domino effect, and will seek to play a tough hand against us in an effort to deter other member states from following our lead.

As Princess Leia may have said "The more you tighten your grip Tarkin (or in this case Merkel) the more star systems (EU States) will slip through your fingers".

Using a fantasy as a comparison may prove to be quite apt, though the analogy itself may not.

But again, we're speculating on speculation. Because the out campaign has no alternative. It's a total stab in the dark. We are betting the mortgage on a total mystery.

We know the future if we remain, to a reasonable extent. And yes, it's far from perfect. But we are the fifth largest economy on this planet after 40 years of membership, despite making up less than 1% of the world's population. If we leave, will we magically become the fourth, or third? Or will we slowly slide, dropping to sixth, then to seventh?

Kangshung wrote:

Yorkie Blue wrote: In my opinion the EU will be aware of the possibility of a domino effect, and will seek to play a tough hand against us in an effort to deter other member states from following our lead.

As Princess Leia may have said "The more you tighten your grip Tarkin (or in this case Merkel) the more star systems (EU States) will slip through your fingers".

Using a fantasy as a comparison may prove to be quite apt, though the analogy itself may not.

But again, we're speculating on speculation. Because the out campaign has no alternative. It's a total stab in the dark. We are betting the mortgage on a total mystery.

We know the future if we remain, to a reasonable extent. And yes, it's far from perfect. But we are the fifth largest economy on this planet after 40 years of membership, despite making up less than 1% of the world's population. If we leave, will we magically become the fourth, or third? Or will we slowly slide, dropping to sixth, then to seventh?

I'm prepared to take that chance.

mojo wrote:

Kangshung wrote:

Yorkie Blue wrote: In my opinion the EU will be aware of the possibility of a domino effect, and will seek to play a tough hand against us in an effort to deter other member states from following our lead.

As Princess Leia may have said "The more you tighten your grip Tarkin (or in this case Merkel) the more star systems (EU States) will slip through your fingers".

Using a fantasy as a comparison may prove to be quite apt, though the analogy itself may not.

But again, we're speculating on speculation. Because the out campaign has no alternative. It's a total stab in the dark. We are betting the mortgage on a total mystery.

We know the future if we remain, to a reasonable extent. And yes, it's far from perfect. But we are the fifth largest economy on this planet after 40 years of membership, despite making up less than 1% of the world's population. If we leave, will we magically become the fourth, or third? Or will we slowly slide, dropping to sixth, then to seventh?

I'm prepared to take that chance.

Snap!

Bruntonpasty wrote:

mojo wrote:

Kangshung wrote:

Yorkie Blue wrote: In my opinion the EU will be aware of the possibility of a domino effect, and will seek to play a tough hand against us in an effort to deter other member states from following our lead.

As Princess Leia may have said "The more you tighten your grip Tarkin (or in this case Merkel) the more star systems (EU States) will slip through your fingers".

Using a fantasy as a comparison may prove to be quite apt, though the analogy itself may not.

But again, we're speculating on speculation. Because the out campaign has no alternative. It's a total stab in the dark. We are betting the mortgage on a total mystery.

We know the future if we remain, to a reasonable extent. And yes, it's far from perfect. But we are the fifth largest economy on this planet after 40 years of membership, despite making up less than 1% of the world's population. If we leave, will we magically become the fourth, or third? Or will we slowly slide, dropping to sixth, then to seventh?

I'm prepared to take that chance.

Snap!

Spot the Greg Abbott supporters.

howoldboy wrote:

Bruntonpasty wrote:

mojo wrote:

Kangshung wrote:

Yorkie Blue wrote: In my opinion the EU will be aware of the possibility of a domino effect, and will seek to play a tough hand against us in an effort to deter other member states from following our lead.

As Princess Leia may have said "The more you tighten your grip Tarkin (or in this case Merkel) the more star systems (EU States) will slip through your fingers".

Using a fantasy as a comparison may prove to be quite apt, though the analogy itself may not.

But again, we're speculating on speculation. Because the out campaign has no alternative. It's a total stab in the dark. We are betting the mortgage on a total mystery.

We know the future if we remain, to a reasonable extent. And yes, it's far from perfect. But we are the fifth largest economy on this planet after 40 years of membership, despite making up less than 1% of the world's population. If we leave, will we magically become the fourth, or third? Or will we slowly slide, dropping to sixth, then to seventh?

I'm prepared to take that chance.

Snap!

Spot the Greg Abbott supporters.

Huh? Lost me there I'm afraid

Bruntonpasty wrote:

howoldboy wrote:

Bruntonpasty wrote:

mojo wrote:

Kangshung wrote:

Yorkie Blue wrote: In my opinion the EU will be aware of the possibility of a domino effect, and will seek to play a tough hand against us in an effort to deter other member states from following our lead.

As Princess Leia may have said "The more you tighten your grip Tarkin (or in this case Merkel) the more star systems (EU States) will slip through your fingers".

Using a fantasy as a comparison may prove to be quite apt, though the analogy itself may not.

But again, we're speculating on speculation. Because the out campaign has no alternative. It's a total stab in the dark. We are betting the mortgage on a total mystery.

We know the future if we remain, to a reasonable extent. And yes, it's far from perfect. But we are the fifth largest economy on this planet after 40 years of membership, despite making up less than 1% of the world's population. If we leave, will we magically become the fourth, or third? Or will we slowly slide, dropping to sixth, then to seventh?

I'm prepared to take that chance.

Snap!

Spot the Greg Abbott supporters.

Huh? Lost me there I'm afraid

absolutely not on my part. its called 'having an opinion'. you may find it doesn't concur with what you like, or what you believe is correct.

Izzard made an eejit of himself ..zzzzzzzz

If the 5th largest economy in the world can't manage without being shackled to the failing EU, how does every other country manage?

In

Why don't the white van men realise if the EU goes tits up it'll be them and their sons getting machine gunned in the trenches when the continent decides to have another genocidal pagger? That it hasn't has been the main benefit of the eu so far.

Dentonholmersimpson wrote: If the 5th largest economy in the world can't manage without being shackled to the failing EU, how does every other country manage?

Every other country? I don't know, you could ask the yanks, Canada and China... or you could ask Somalia, North Korea and Venezuela. No other country is in the position we are. As comparisons are impossible, I think you ask the wrong question.

The UK is unique within the EU - we reap the benefits without many of the burdens other members and prospective members face. Our economy is not governed by the ECB and we will never be forced to adopt the Euro - unless we leave, then decide to reapply. We retain full fiscal sovereignty, which can not be taken away. No other European nation enjoys such autonomy. On top of this, our rebate dramatically reduces our contribution to the EU budget. And, of course, there are non-EU states who contribute almost as much per capita to the EU budget simply to acquire access to the single market. That access also comes with the obligation to allow free movement, and to comply with large swathes of EU law. Do you think we can avoid these two clauses in any favourable trade deal after withdrawal?

In short, our position within the EU is a major factor in why our economy is the fifth largest on the planet.

The question you should be asking is more like 'would we have the fifth largest economy in the world if we hasn't joined the European club in the first place?'

Not that I expect to change anybody's mind. Most are now firmly made up, as they are entitled to be.

As long as they agree with me

seesaw50 wrote: Izzard made an eejit of himself ..zzzzzzzz

Farage has come over very well over the last couple of nights despite that pompus arse Andrew Neil trying to drag old stud shit up rather that trying to get him to back up figures which is what the watching public clearly want.

Why the hell the BBC give Izzard airtime on this or any other subject is way beyond me.

Have heard all the arguements from both sides and can confidently predict that whatever the result of the referendum, at the moment we are like passengers on the Titanic,and I,like a lot of others would rather launch the lifeboats than hit that big white thing, which is undoubtedly going to happen.

Dentonholmersimpson wrote: Have heard all the arguements from both sides and can confidently predict that whatever the result of the referendum, at the moment we are like passengers on the Titanic,and I,like a lot of others would rather launch the lifeboats than hit that big white thing, which is undoubtedly going to happen.

To me, the 'out' vote is the iceberg.

There aren't enough lifeboats, and that water is fecking freezing.

orfc wrote: In

Why don't the white van men realise if the EU goes tits up it'll be them and their sons getting machine gunned in the trenches when the continent decides to have another genocidal pagger? That it hasn't has been the main benefit of the eu so far.

White Van Man carnt really lose if we vote out and it turns out as bad as the remainers say there.ll be a lot of white vans heading over the channel full of the British goods that everybody wants all to be paid for in cash and that.ll be good old British pounds not your shitey euros Mr Foreigner.

OUT.

And yet again, (PLEASE).....OUT!

You're the fecking lunatic pal. The last Labour government was what you would call an obscene government .They shit on their own and shit on the rest of us. I'd take Boris any day of the week.

Dentonholmersimpson wrote:

CheadleBlue wrote: Out.

Northumbrian, you should have fronted the out campaign instead of the idiots like Farage who are trying to persuade people to vote leave by making them fear immigration.

If Nigel Farage hadn't brought to the attention of the masses the ways of the undemocratic,money wasting, corrupt entity that is the EU a few years ago I doubt we would be having this referendum.

He's been riding the gravy train for all its worth for nearly 20 years !

I've seen better reasoned debates from both sides on this messageboard than from both official campaigns. why can't they do the same with the same knowledge rather than constantly bleating on about the £350M, the NHS and immigration?

Yes all very interesting and informative. Are you taking note how old boy? No need to insult the outers who you don't agree with.

The EU in the original concept as a free trade area involving co-operation between the European nations was good, as ORFC indicated, this has contributed to a peaceful continent over the last 70 years after centuries of conflict. The modern EU however, is becoming more like a good old 1950`s Soviet Union, admittedly without the deadly purges, but with that strong political grip that wishes to impose compliance without dissention over it`s citizens.
The result of this is a polarisation of opinion and the emergence of political movements within Europe that want out. The exasperation of the people in Europe at the ever remote rulers of the EU who seem to take little heed of what their own population wants is only going to result in civil and social unrest.
This is the Achilles heel of the EU, if the UK votes to leave then it may be this will be followed by Frexit, Spexit, Gerexit etc. If the UK votes to remain it`s only a matter of time before one of the other countries leaves precipitating the collapse of the EU. this would be messy, but ultimately may result in the emergence of a Europe that may reflect better the aspirations of the member nations, and be more fit for purpose in the 21st century.

I think if the EU were to collapse we would see smaller blocks of countries forming. Scandinavia, Spain/Portugal. Central block of Germany/Austria/Netherlands/France/Belgium.

A main fear would he Moscow taking advantage of the fallout and increasing its sphere of influence back to how it was in the Soviet days.

The only threat to peace in Europe is Russia and I think NATO was set up as an alliance to defend against this threat, the EU was never about military union.

For an example, let's look at the last two major crisies the EU has had to deal with, the Eurozone crisis and mass immigration from the Middle East and Africa.

The Chuckle Brothers could have handled them better.

This is a bit like the trust issue lol, to be part of and effect change from within oreason to stand on the sidelines and have no influence. And cheers Old this was a decent debate viva la difference. I respect other people's opinions whether they agree with mine or not, whatever the result we will all have to live with it.

New poll by orb for The Independent has Leave on 55% Remain 45% ....funny does that mean there are no don't knows!! Everybody's decided!!

seesaw50 wrote: New poll by orb for The Independent has Leave on 55% Remain 45% ....funny does that mean there are no don't knows!! Everybody's decided!!

they maybe asked 20 people in a pub one lunchtime.

Well it'll be a sample of about 1000

Little test that debunks some of the myths and 'facts' put out by both sides.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/11/can-...oc_spf_fb-sf28476091

DeckchairBlue wrote: Little test that debunks some of the myths and 'facts' put out by both sides.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/11/can-...oc_spf_fb-sf28476091

that test is as bad as the propaganda that is spouted. one of the questions asks 'can you name your local MEP without googling it?' I said 'no' because I can't, and I got marked 'wrong'.

To the thread title. Cameron pedaling doom and WW 3....